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c627627 Registered Users
 New Member
 Posts:5
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| 04/17/2009 6:12 PM |
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What is a reasonable price for Architectural services for a custom made 3,000 sq foot SIP house and more importantly what should it include?
So far I have a price that includes: Exterior elevations, foundation plan, floor plans, and roof plan and all the typical stuff required by the City. (But no schedules, sections or mechanical, electrical or plumbing drawings and other stuff not required by the City.)
I understand the subcontractors typically design the plumbing and mechanical systems, not the Architect? I'm told that lighting design is done for free if you buy the fixtures from some places. Or I could pay additional $1,295 so "the contractor could get competitive bids on the lighting."
• Should I insist on a change on the standard procedure of Architect maintaining the legal copyrights to the plan and what about the required mediation clause?
Unrelated question: In a situation where the soil is somewhat unstable and close to a bit of a ravine, what about a SIP house "on stilts"? It would be cheaper than doing a traditional basement on piers. (Less concrete and less grading).
• What do you guys see as a downside to that other than it being "different" looks-wise. What are some "issues" bankers, subcontractors, appraisers would have with it?
• What about a suspended slab garage with room below garage for storage / shelter from a storm or is going with multiple piers due to somewhat unstable soil (landfill of old construction material, asphalt, dirt etc.) a better way to go?
Thank you.
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Alton Registered Users
 Advanced Member
 Posts:662
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| 04/17/2009 9:02 PM |
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Price for architectural services really depends upon the amount of work, the size of the home, the location, special problems, and the type of contract. Ideally, in addition to what you have listed, you should also have the specifications and schedules for the windows, doors and room treatment. Room treatments include all four walls, ceiling and floor finishes. Although room treatments may not be required by the code official, they do come in handy for quotes. Many architects base their fee upon a percentage of the total cost. By the way, the total cost can include landscaping and other things you would think had nothing to do with the house. As a designer, I have always quoted a flat fee if I do not design for free.
If we knew the area where you plan to build, then someone on this forum could advise you more easily.
In the South, a lot of builders and electricians do not want a plan for electrical. Most homeowners do not relate to plans that well. Most electricians that I have dealt with for the last 30 years would prefer to walk through the home during the structural stage with the homeowner and mark the location of switches and other electrical items. However, if you plan to use chases in SIPs for electrical, then you will need an electrical plan before you order the SIPs.
Over the years, I have been required to do only one HVAC plan. As a general rule, provisions should be made for HVAC and duct work within the structure, but a drawn plan is not required for residences in my area. If you do not plan ahead for HVAC, then you stand the risk of losing closet space or head room to fit in the duct work. I have seen this happen many times.
Some architects will not give up their right to copyright the plan. Most will not allow the homeowner to share credit for the design. Some will agree not to use your plan again but will insist on reserving the right to publish the plan, enter it into contests, etc. Some architects will want more money for not being able to use the plan again.
Maybe someone from another area or your area can further advise you. If you happen to be building close to me, then I may be available to donate some time to your project. |
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Alton C. Keown Residential Designer and Construction Technology Consultant Auburn, Alabama E-mail: alton at auburn dot edu |
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c627627 Registered Users
 New Member
 Posts:5
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| 04/17/2009 9:38 PM |
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Thank you kindly and it's for Kansas City. I'll be sure to ask your suggestions be included in the Architect's quote. It's a flat fee of course since I figure percentage of cost would kill me for a more expensive SIP house. Thanks for the HVAC and duct work reminder, I'd sure like to use Geothermal but don't know if I can swing the cost with no major rebates for us like they have elsewhere...
So then to summarize and include your suggestions: • Exterior elevations • Foundation plan • Floor plans • Roof plan • "Typical stuff"
[i]required[/i] by the City • Specifications and schedules for the windows and doors • Specifications and schedules for Room treatments to include all four walls, ceiling and floor finishes. • Provisions for HVAC and duct work within the structure
try to include • Landscaping [and what other things that have nothing to do with the house?]
Since it was specified that [i]"there would be no schedules, sections or mechanical,
electrical or plumbing drawings and other stuff not required by the
City"[/i] I would take that to mean that the quoted price does not include your suggestion for Specifications and schedules for the windows and doors and room treatments. If that is correct, I have no frame of reference what a fair price for those additions would be...?
Also, should the quote include Architect supervising parts of construction?
Once again, Kansas City, 3,000 sq feet, Special conditions include somewhat unstable soil and a steep drop in the back that requires either multiple piers or use of "stilts".
EDIT: Re plan ownership, it's less about what the Architect does with it then what I can/will do with it, do people usually pay for a custom design then have no right's to it as far they are concerned any more. I understand limiting what the Architect can do with it costs more but does it cost more to allow the person paying for it more rights?
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Alton Registered Users
 Advanced Member
 Posts:662
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| 04/17/2009 10:59 PM |
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I have no idea of the fee structure in Kansas City for architects. I suggest that you call architects in your area and ask them what they charge. I do that in my area when I get too busy to do a design. Most will gladly tell you a ballpark figure if you will tell them the size and answer a few questions. Or ask builders.
Flat fees work well with some architects. Watch out for extra charges for changes and hours consumed beyond a certain limit. Their contract will usually state this hourly charge beyond the flat fee.
I do not see how anyone can design a home without furnishing window and door schedules. This does not mean the brand has to be selected, but it does mean that the sizes and locations must be on the plans.
If the city and your builder do not need sections, then there is not much need for them. Some banks have required sections.
Room schedules are usually included by architects and designers. The room schedule can show the color of paint and finish on each wall and ceiling, the style and size of trim, the floor covering such as carpet, tile, hardwood, etc. Rooms with tile can require different preparation and materials than a room for carpet. (Be aware that different floor coverings touching each other may not be the same height unless someone makes the necessary adjustments.)
If the architect wants too much to include the room schedule, then you and your wife can use a spreadsheet, etc. to make your own schedule since you will probably know what you want better than the architect. Normally, the architect interviews you for your needs and desires and then prepares the info in a table. Homeowners make changes as necessary and then the architect includes room schedule on the plans.
Unrelated items do not have to be a part of the design. Most landscapers will include the design for free if they get the contract. An architect's fee should not cover things that he spends absolutely no time on. Have the architect spell out what his services will cover. Most will charge extra for expenses such as blueprints and trips to the site.
Only a few of the architects that I know will supervise the construction. Some are willing to make inspections at critical stages. If you feel comfortable with your builder and that you can check his work for quality and compliance with the plans, then you may not need to pay the architect for this extra service.
My normal practice is to design the home and assist the homeowner to be his own builder. If you have a good architect and a good builder, then it should be less stressful for you. Be sure to study your plans closely before construction starts and then avoid making un-necessary changes after construction commences.
I do not see that designing for SIPs should cost more than stick framing. In certain cases, you may need a structural engineer to sign and seal the plans (wet stamp).
Some architect's contract will state that although you pay him his fee for the design, you still do not own the design. In fact, you may be limitied to building only one home with this plan. This is put in contracts to try to prevent spec builders from paying one fee and using the plan over and over. The best thing that you can do is ask the architect for a copy of his typical contract so that you can study it before you start bargaining. Take it to your lawyer and/or attach it to an e-mail and send it to me.
I will be traveling the next couple of days so maybe someone else will also assist you. |
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Alton C. Keown Residential Designer and Construction Technology Consultant Auburn, Alabama E-mail: alton at auburn dot edu |
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cmkavala Registered Users
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1415

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| 04/18/2009 6:22 AM |
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Posted By Alton on 04/17/2009 9:02 PM
In the South, a lot of builders and electricians do not want a plan for electrical. Alton; the same is true for HVAC it is sometimes betterleft done by those if have the expertise, Our electrician will do an effecient electrical plan at no charge the same is true for the HVAC, who will do the plan and all the calcs necessary for permitting and the energy star certification at no charge.
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Chris Kavala chris@southernsips dot com 1-877-321-SIPS |
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cmkavala Registered Users
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1415

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| 04/18/2009 6:35 AM |
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c627627;
Architectural fees are all over the map; I recently did a 3000 sq. ft. SIP house that was done by a "real" Architect , I almost choked when I found out the homeowner paid $33,000. The architect did his own HVAC plan that was not buildable. Total project cost was $490,000.
We also recently did a 3300 sq. ft. SIP house with our "in-house" drafting for $4,000. including signed and sealed engineered structural review, HVAC was done for free by our HVAC sub. Total project cost was $355,000. |
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Chris Kavala chris@southernsips dot com 1-877-321-SIPS |
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wes Registered Users
 Advanced Member
 Posts:637
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| 04/18/2009 12:19 PM |
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Alton and I agree on a great many things involving the design and construction of quality homes. Though he approaches it from an architect's point while I come at it more as a builder/designer. In addition to his points, let me add a couple of specific points. I think at least one section plan is important to have when working with new systems. For instance a SIPS home on an ICF basement/foundation. This can be handy for tradespeople who are not that familiar with the details. I am also finding that a kitchen cabinet plan can be very helpful. So many of my clients find the kitchen to be the most important space in the house, and they have very definitive ideas about the form and function of the kitchen. So a meeting with the owners and their kitchen designer early on allows us to maximize the kitchen's function. I am not sure that doing room by room specs of finishes and colors is all that necessary. Most of my clients either don't want us to do it, or are planning on hiring a interior decorator, who will throw out our plans, anyway.
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Wes Shelby Design Systems Group Murray KY wandr@ainweb.net |
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c627627 Registered Users
 New Member
 Posts:5
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| 04/18/2009 1:00 PM |
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I will then see what it would cost to add at least one section plan, wes. Kitchen for my specific case is not at the top of the list of priorities, to give you an idea, I'm looking into leaving it as unfinished as possible in favor of everything else and moving in sooner. Your comment about room by room specs of finishes and colors makes sense. To poster above you: I understand then that HVAC sub should really be the one for that, not the Architect...
• I am very grateful to Alton for his suggestions. I'll try to follow his advice and figure out which brand of doors/windows I'd like to use in order to figure out rough opening sizes so that I can get door and window schedules for construction.
• I am building on somewhat unstable land. My Architectural contract does not cover engineering fees for the SIPs or any bad conditions discovered on the lot (structural or geoengineering fees.) I've contacted R-Control for SIPs and I'm pretty sure their quote did not cover structural fees for the SIPs. Alton points out that SIP company will not cover designing special footers, etc. that might be required by earth that will not support the minimum pressure as required by the weight of the building.
So then 1. At first I thought of getting a separate engineer to determine geoengineering issues of the lot. I suppose I should compare fees for that with doing this through the Architect which I assume would cost extra since it is not part of the original contract.
2. Last year I did some research for brands of internal items such as doors/windows. I have yet to determine internal door choices, any ideas? Here are my notes for windows:
If Geothermal system is used, energy savings with too expensive Windows may take decades. Look into other features such as noise. Insulating features such as heat-reflecting, low-E coatings and argon gas between glass panes have become standard on many lines. Clad-wood and fiberglass Windows are better than Vinyl. Even if you're buying clad-wood windows for the rest of the house, consider buying vinyl or fiberglass windows for areas near or below grade. Termites and other pests find those materials less attractive.
- Argon gas slows down heat transfer to improve efficiency. - Low E-coating improves energy efficiency. - U-factor is the rate of heat loss. The lower the better. - SHGC, Solar heatgain coeficient. Cold climates: highest number, warm climates: 0.40 or less, temperate areas: 0.55 or less. - VT, Visible transmittance measures visible light that is let in. The higher the better.
Pay attention to low-temperature wind resistance if you live in the Midwest.
^ Fiberglass Pella Impervia $255 UR 0.33 More durable & more convenient than wood-clad Pella ProLine. Available only in standard sizes.
^ Clad Wood -Marvin Clad Ultimate $400 (slightly more durable) UR 0.31 -Marvin Wood Ultrex Integrity $315 (slightly more durable and slighlty more convenient.) UR 0.30 -Andersen 400 Series Tilt Wash & Woodright $350 UR 0.34 -Pella ProLine $215 is considerably cheaper than others which have just slightly better rain resistance. UR 0.32 -Andersen 200 Tilt Wash $235 is not as durable as Pella ProLine $215 UR 0.34
Pella ProLine is the best choice for wood-clad. [b]EDIT: wes says to stay away from Pella Pro-Line, it's no good.[/b]
^ Vinyl Not as good as Wood or Fiberglass but choices are: Reliabit (Lowe's) 5600 $395 UR 0.30 Alside Ultramaxx Replacement $180 UR 0.31 American Craftsman (Home Depot) 9500 $220 UR 0.32
Look into vinyl clad instead of all wood windows.
For Kansas City, consider Double Glazed, Low E glass and then Higher Solar gain for help with Heating Bill at some expense of the Cooling bill. Lower Solar gain for help with Cooling Bill at some expense of the Heating bill.
Windows that are ENERGY STAR qualified in the North/Central Climate Zone must have NFRC certified performance ratings of: * U-Factor: 0.40 or less * SHGC: 0.55 or less
Windows that are ENERGY STAR qualified in the North/Central Climate Zone generally have the following characteristics: * Low E-glass * Wood, vinyl, fiberglass or composite frame material * Gas fill of Argon, Krypton or other inert gas [not used in all units]
Make sure the windows price includes screens and night locks.
I also read this: [i]Quiet Living Serenity Series windows from Salt Lake City-based AMSCO work hard to keep homes quieter, as well as more comfortable. The sound-control windows are engineered with various glass widths and a triple glazing design to achieve high Sound Transmission Class (STC) ratings. A typical window with a single pane of glass has an STC rating of about 27, while Serenity Series windows offer STC ratings from 40 to 47. The higher the rating number, the better the window is at reducing the penetration of outside noise and keeping the home quieter.
Most homeowners will notice a change by increasing the STC of their windows by about five points, while increasing the STC by 10 points will reduce the penetration of noise by about half.
Serenity Series windows are a good choice for homeowners who live near busy highways or freeways, rail lines or airports, or those who just want to reduce the intrusion of typical noises from the surrounding neighborhood. For more information: 888-822-6726 or www.amscowindows.com.[/i]
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wes Registered Users
 Advanced Member
 Posts:637
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| 04/18/2009 10:45 PM |
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A couple more comments. 1. Your unstable soil conditions scream for a structural engineer to do real world site tests for backfill stability. They can then design a foundation plan based on actual conditions and requirements. 2. I try not to be too negative about any particular product, but I make an exception when it comes to the Pella Pro-Line windows. My experiiences have been universally negative with the Pro-Line. For my own house, I would use the cheapest vinyl window available before the Pro-Line. (Just my opinion, based on my own experiences.) 3. Speaking of vinyl windows, check out Target brand windows, made near St. Louis, and very good quality and energy ratings.
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Wes Shelby Design Systems Group Murray KY wandr@ainweb.net |
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c627627 Registered Users
 New Member
 Posts:5
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| 04/18/2009 11:38 PM |
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1. At my meeting on Monday, I will point out to the Architect your valid point about foundation plan only being drawn up based on actual conditions and requirements.
2. I believe my Pella Pro notes were based on Consumer Reports tests done in 2008 on windows. I edited the post above to include your warning about Pella-Pro, but note the Consumer Reports tests about them. Target windows: http://www.targetwindowsanddoors.com/ I'll be sure to check them out and compare to whatever else I come across.
The architect informed me that the windows won't matter to us until we get to the construction drawings. Apparently, they just put generic window sizes on the drawing. Then when you decide what you want the builder just makes the modifications before SIPs are ordered. So that's the answer about that.
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Alton Registered Users
 Advanced Member
 Posts:662
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| 04/20/2009 12:55 PM |
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C627627, I have reviewed the e-mails between us and the postings on this forum. I am impressed by your architect's candor.
At first the architect/designer should list nominal sizes for windows and doors. On the plans, the architect will probably label each window with a capital letter and each door with a number (At least that is what I do.) After you select the window brand, then a table is set up to show the brand name, nominal size, actual size, grills (muntins), screens, etc. If you do not want to pay for preparing the table, then you can make up your own table, just be sure to have someone else to proofread it since you plan to use SIPs.
Door schedules are very similar but simpler.
By the way, do you plan to use OSB SIPs or metal? In the South we strongly encourage clients to use metal instead of wood because of termites.
If you have some indications that the soil for the footers is weak, then it should be tested. As a general rule, a geotechnical engineer should analyze the soil and determine the pounds per square foot that it will support. Some geotechnical engineers will gladly design the footer and retaining walls. If there is anything else in a structure that requires structural analysis and a wet stamp, then I have found it best for the geotechnical engineer to give a copy of his report to a structural engineer. The structural engineer will insist on designing the footer and any retaining walls if there is anything structural above (SIPs) that requires a wet stamp otherwise they will not want to be responsible for structural failures.
Because of the slope, you may have a choice between building on piers or a basement. Of course, if the soil will support a basement, then with all things being equal, I would choose a basement even if it is not finished when you move in. As you know, a basement, if done properly, can be a wonderful place for storage and also a place to hide from storms. I much prefer a full basement instead of a partial one.
Always keep in mind that regardless of what anyone else prefers, this is your home and the total cost will have to fit within your budget. Keep asking questions and we will try our best to help in any way that we can.
Wes, I really appreciate your postings. We all have different approaches and none of us can cover every pertient detail. When a lot of people post, the quality of the information improves. I have learned so much from this forum. On one of my trips to KY maybe we can talk shop and place faces with names. |
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Alton C. Keown Residential Designer and Construction Technology Consultant Auburn, Alabama E-mail: alton at auburn dot edu |
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neilb Registered Users
 New Member
 Posts:13
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| 04/20/2009 2:26 PM |
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| you have raised many isues here. The first as Architectural. You might look for a Desaign Build Firm. That would lower the cost of the plans. Yet when you put anything on piers....you must have soil tests. Piers can be tricky, and they have to be done by someone who knows what they are doing. You can make a sip house look like any other house...it does not need to be a cookie cutter design. Also, be careful on an elevated slab, it needs to be done by a professional....you don't need aq life long problem. In conclusion, there is no down side to building w/ sips. Lower HVAC costs. allergy free inviroment, no drafts, strong solid building. What id the down side to that? |
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