ShaneR
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| 06/29/2009 4:22 AM |
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Hey guys, I'm new to this forum... like what you've done with the place :)
I'm a Belgian designer and am interested in SIP construction.
is it a ludicrous idea to make my own SIP panels?
I'm thinking along the lines of laying out OSB panels, putting strips of timber internally to nail the seams together. glue on compressed polystyrene panels leaving void channels for electrics. and finally glueing on the second layer of OSB...
this is just me thinking out loud for a moment to be honest, I'm looking for ideas to design a budget eco home.
I haven't looked at types of glue etc, but I'm getting the impression that a DIY job with a "when in doubt, overbuild" motto might be a more cost efficient approach to getting similar or better results than approaching a manufacturing facility.
another thing that I like about the idea is that the poeple I work with most are my brothers and generally produce good results, so obviously I prefer working with them than with random poeple.
looking forward to your insights :)
Regards,
S
PS: more about the design concept if you're inclined:
a simple family home, 2 bedrooms and a box room(potential office or small bedroom depending on family size) with a simple as possible layout, straightforward electrics/drainage/etc and a cubelike shape(a cube is a cost efficient shape in terms of volume/skin ratio and it's a simple shape to build). I'll be looking for cheap but quality solutions as much as I can. the idea being that we can provide a good basic home that should be adequate to support most families at a fraction of a conventional house's cost.
I will spend a LOT of time with this design but we would intend to sell it repetitively all over europe.
the concept is very simple but i think it's got great potential. There's plenty of poeple who dont want a 30 year mortgage as soon as they finish secondary school.
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ergodesk
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| 06/29/2009 1:40 PM |
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| SIP's has become a more broader term than the sips most people think. The old sip's were skinned with OSB wood but today's SIP's are available in many types of skins. There are Systems that you apply skins with screw and nails. |
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cmkavala
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| 06/29/2009 1:52 PM |
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Posted By ergodesk on 06/29/2009 1:40 PM
SIP's has become a more broader term than the sips most people think. The old sip's were skinned with OSB wood but today's SIP's are available in many types of skins. There are Systems that you apply skins with screw and nails. ergo;
The definition may be broader in your mind.
nothing has changed, SIPs still have skins.
Your photo is what we old timer's call walls.
tilt up concrete walls are closer than what you are showing
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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ergodesk
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| 06/29/2009 2:19 PM |
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The pictures show EPS structural panels minus any skins.
you can apply any skin you like, wood, plastic concrete, or yes even metal. |
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cmkavala
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| 06/29/2009 2:34 PM |
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Posted By ergodesk on 06/29/2009 2:19 PM
The pictures show EPS structural panels minus any skins.
you can apply any skin you like, wood, plastic concrete, or yes even metal. any studded wall has some strutural integrity when skins (or sheathing) are applied to studs, it adds to the value.
However, it no way compares to the strength and tight isulative value of a laminated skin to a solid insulated core
...... a SIP
A panelized wall is not a new technology, has no more strength nor better insulating qualities over conventionally framed systems.
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Chris Kavala
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ergodesk
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| 06/29/2009 3:10 PM |
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| Agreed... Skins applied to these panels are more than double structurally than mechanically fastened skins. GFRC can be applied wet for a super strong skin, when cured can last for 100's of years of maintenance free surfaces. |
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ergodesk
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| 06/29/2009 4:03 PM |
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| Similar System the different is the company just won some big award or something. |
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Build Smarter with Structural Insulated Air
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Jelly
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| 06/30/2009 7:23 PM |
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| The point, ergodesk, is that system you're showing is not a SIP. A true SIP is a structural insulated panel with the same structural properties as an I-beam, where the foam is analogous to the web and the stressed skins are analogous to the flanges. |
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ergodesk
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| 06/30/2009 8:33 PM |
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Posted By Jelly on 06/30/2009 7:23 PM
The point, ergodesk, is that system you're showing is not a SIP. A true SIP is a structural insulated panel with the same structural properties as an I-beam, where the foam is analogous to the web and the stressed skins are analogous to the flanges.
Hi jelly,
I see you get my "POINT" for some reason many on this Forum and in general think that SIPS are foam cored OSB Skinned Panels, and that not TRUE.
The Pics I chose to show here are from companies that list their product as SIPS, and I roll my eyes back into my heads every time I hear it. But these panels are... even though some (Sip Pros)don't recognize the as such they are:
1. Structural
2. Insulated
3. Panels
What you really are saying they are not Structural (Diaphragm/Sherewall Panels)see pic. The problem is that everyone is their own expert but have at times little understanding of the materials they are referring., but thats life.
Just do a GOOGLE Photo search on SIPS and you will see over 90% Show OSB Panels, and thats what I mean, most have a slanted understanding of what SIPS really are.
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Build Smarter with Structural Insulated Air
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PanelCrafters
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| 07/01/2009 7:52 AM |
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Posted By ergodesk on 06/30/2009 8:33 PM
Just do a GOOGLE Photo search on SIPS and you will see over 90% Show OSB Panels, and thats what I mean, most have a slanted understanding of what SIPS really are.
Or, just maybe, there are those that are manipulating the meaning of the acronym to better fit their agenda...  |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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Rio
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| 07/01/2009 1:27 PM |
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What is being shown is a PISF (Pre-Insulated Steel Framing System) and while strong and a product that I have a lot of interest in will not have the lateral resistance that a SIP will have. If you use the PISF you still have to provide shear panels. I like the PISF because it has no wood so no termites, no offgassing, no issues with water deforming the OSB as with SIP's but it's definitely not a SIP and shouldn't be presented as such.
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tomgocze
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| 07/01/2009 5:46 PM |
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We have built several houses with DIY SIPS and have had several others build their own also.
Our design is similar to those shown with the steel studs.
We used 4'x8' sheets of foam, but also laminated larger panels by using layers of foam. The interior studs were laid flat on the face of the foam. It was usually placed 16" OC. waterproof white glue (like Titebond) was used to glue together the studs on the inside and the layers of foam. On the exterior, we usually used 1x3's also laid flat opposite the inside studs.
To finish the construction, we used roofing screws that were the right length to go through the outside strapping, through the foam and end up at least 1" into the interior studs.
Being laminated(glued and screwed) creates a very rigid panel.
There are a ton of variations on this. You can use 2x lumber on the outside.
You can sheathe it if you want to. And of course, this panel has very little thermal bridging. The screw fasteners do not protrude to the inside of the building. They are also above the dew point, since they are running through the foam and are not exposed on the inside.
We use 5 screws per 8' stud. This is about half the cost of a commercially available panel. You can price it out yourself.
We had them tested in a structural engineering lab at the University of Maine and they were as strong as commercially manufactured panels in terms of compressive loading. The panel we tested was R-40 EPS (9 1/4") with three 2x3's and three 1x3's in a 4x8 panel. It carried in excess of 18,000# and was still within code for deflection. When we went up to 22k, it buckled, but carried the load. It went back to plumb when the load was removed.
This might not be for everyone, but it works. Foam can carry a fairly high compressive load if it is protected from buckling. The OSB sheathing does that on SIPS and the 2x's and 1x's can do it with our panels.
One last note. I did my home's panels with 2x4's on both sides. I live on the ocean with high wind and rain infiltration.
Tom
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jdebree
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| 07/01/2009 6:27 PM |
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| One question- How would you get homemade panels past a building inspector? |
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tomgocze
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| 07/01/2009 6:29 PM |
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| With a letter from the structural engineer. |
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tomgocze
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| 07/01/2009 6:36 PM |
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Actually a longer answer might be that you might be able to convince a code person that the studding is in place, it is just oriented in a different way. If it is kept from buckling, it is functioning similar to a stick built wall.
I think a structural engineer would easily sign off on this concept without the testing, just by running the numbers and describing how the panel was to be built.
There are a lot of variations on this theme, since foam does offer a structural component to any building that integrates it into a wall or roof system. If you stop and think about a SIP, you have ten pounds of foam and two sheets of 7/16" OSB along with some very nice adhesive. It is a composite system, as it what I described and I am sure what many others have tried.
We had it tested and knew it was strong. In the town where we built the first one, we never saw the code inspector.
It was rural Maine and was 12 years ago. Since then, we have gotten the letter from the engineer when necessary.
Tom |
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cmkavala
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| 07/02/2009 5:02 AM |
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Tomgocze;
what cost do you put on the value of your labor? |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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tomgocze
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| 07/03/2009 7:38 PM |
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My labor is free to me. It is sweat equity.
People who have done this with hired help still feel that they were ahead on the costs.
I can make a good case for using pre-made SIPS if I was building a house now, since my time is more valuable doing other things and I am older than I was when we did our last project. I think that high R value SIPS are a really great deal since the consumer only pays for the additional insulation costs--which you manufacturers are quite reasonable with--and the extra cost of framing around openings in thicker walls.
Since most of our walls were R-65 (and higher on a couple!) we used some pretty serious framing. I would suggest getting quotes and then considering what your materials and time is worth.
Both have their place. I would rather use a SIP than stick building, but understand that old habits die hard. |
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tomgocze
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| 07/03/2009 8:00 PM |
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Been getting questions on the DIY concept we did. There are a lot of different ways to accomplish these panels. Some understanding of SIPS helps. And I cannot emphasize that the commercial SIPS offer simplicity and in house engineering AND a warranty!!!
I am not an engineer and do not even play one on TV.
The panels are pretty stiff without sheathing. With plates installed, they do not rack. I used sheathing on my house, which is right on the coast and is really overbuilt, since we do have some serious wind. The thicker the panels are the stronger they are. 1# EPS and 2# polysio seem to be a match in terms of a given wall with the same R value has about the same strength characteristics. EPS is the best deal in buying first quality foam and it is hot wire cut-able.
The siding can be nailed directly to the "studs" or strapping on the outside. If shingles are used, sheathing is necessary or vertical strapping can be added.
No building paper. Facia is done the same as stick buildings. We either overhang the roof panels or frame something up.
I would leave the gap between the framing and foam on the exterior as an air barrier for siding if it was wood siding.
Being anal about insulation, I built walls that had 5.5" of polyiso foam, with 2x4's on both sides. The outer 2x was pressure treated and over-hung the panel so it could be screwed into the floor band joist. I then cut and fit 1.5" polyiso in between the exterior studs and then covered that with another 2". I then applied sheathing over that. The bottom could then be enclosed with a PT 2x4 to keep critters out of the foam. That was a total of 9" of polyiso.
On the inside, we kept the air space, which was a decent chase for wiring. I drilled behind the interior studs for snaking wiring behind them.
SIPS screws and roofing screws are basically the same thing. Sometimes different drivers are used.
This is a really simple project. I have done them with strapping on both sides (1x3 or 4). The screws are a little harder to deal with, since you have to be careful to not overdrive them. I usually use this for sheds and smaller buildings that I want to be insulated.
We were in the business of selling factory second polyiso foam. I have always used retail costs for explaining the costs to people since not everyone can buy seconds.
We usually do roofing panels differently, in that we use 2x4's on both sides and the framing is at the edge of the panel. This allows us to tie adjacent panels together. We have also strapped both sides of the panels to help keep them in the same plane. We installed a roof onto a ridge beam (very carefully) without a crane, just some staging on the second floor and several sets of hands. Without the weight of OSB on both sides, the panels are manageable.
Tom
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cmkavala
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| 07/04/2009 6:32 AM |
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Posted By tomgocze on 07/03/2009 8:00 PM
understanding of SIPS helps.
Tom;
this is a true statement, and I'm not sure your to that level yet?
Your DIY , non-engineered system sounds similar to some of ergodesk's
prebuilt wall stud/insul. sytems that are not trully a SIP,
I am a little curious how you accomplish tall gable end walls and 20 ft. long roof panels with just 8ft. long OSB sheets
PS; studs are thermal bridges which is why a true SIP has an thermal advantage being studless |
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Chris Kavala
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Rio
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| 07/04/2009 9:06 AM |
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Tomgocze wrote:
"The siding can be nailed
directly to the "studs" or strapping on the outside. If shingles are
used, sheathing is necessary or vertical strapping can be added.
No building paper."
I'm curious as to why the building paper would be eliminated from the wall assembly. Could you elaborate?
Thanks,
Rio
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