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The Sipper
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Posts:133
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| 04/19/2009 9:15 PM |
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OK gang, so after a long hard day out in the sun, watching my grandson's 12 U baseball team, the "2008 Elite 24 World Series" Champs 11U, win a big time tournament "the hard way" (double elimination tournament, a loss to their arch rivals that they had to make up by beating them twice, 3 games in one day), the last thing on my mind was l___ h____g, and his totally uninformed rants on this forum.
Having said that, (having properly hydrayting myself) I can't resist posting a comment or two in response.
First of all, almost everything that I might have said, in response to the subject "rants" has already been said by other, mostly regular, contributors to this forum, some rather gently, others not so gently. My first inclination was to join the latter group, perhaps even turning things up a notch or two, however, what's the point?
My favorite comment from the instigator of this thread is ".............money sucking machines, ie business owners"
The 6 field baseball complex (Big League Dreams) where my grandson, and hundreds of other kids, parents, grandparents, etc experienced a great day today, is owned, and operated by a group of ".............money sucking machines, ie business owners"
(Only in America!)
That's enough from me for now, Does anybody else have anything else to add? I'm thinking that L___H____ is going to get the last word in here but it seems to me that would be a fitting conclusion considering the obvious lack of information, and real world experience, that he's exhibited in his subject posts.
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Polycore
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Posts:64
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| 05/01/2009 5:08 PM |
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I am not going to get personal or philosophical on you, someone else has already PMS'd all over this topic :)
The bottom line is that every SIP manufacturer is making money as a business, or they are not in business for very long. Regardless of what you saw the price of OSB to be, chances are the SIP manufacturers are not cutting them selves short when the determine their pricing. This is business gentleman. |
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Polycore Canada Inc.
www.polycorecanada.com
1-877-765-9267 |
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leonhuang
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Posts:20
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| 05/01/2009 5:38 PM |
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| agree, all i want to say is the margin is too big for them. or otherwise, the market is too small:) |
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Brawler
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Posts:127
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| 05/01/2009 8:29 PM |
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| If a company wants to sell SIPS cheaper I am all for it, but the sIP companys that have been around more than a couple years seem to be in line with one another. I for one have chosen one of the big boys to order my sips through. Some things, such as the very structure of my house will not be purchased on the "cheapest bid wins" mentality. In this market if someone could do SIPS significantly cheaper they would. I would guess alot of the companies we have read about on this forum that are now out of biz were cheaper. On another note, there are few more rewarding feelings than buying american. I am dead serious about this. American goods first, next from our allies and only then from China. I was there this year and i can tell you they are not our ally. When i am an old man i will know that a tradesman in michigan built my walls at the same time the auto industry was leaving the same state. Boycott Wallmart is my creedo. Sorry to rant. Michael |
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ecobuilder
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Posts:86
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| 05/01/2009 10:37 PM |
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I would not buy panels made overseas, it goes against all things green. I am not talking about money or country, I am talking about the use of energy. I even go as far as to spend $.10/ sqft more for my SIP's to buy tham from a local manufacturer. But I save more than that in shipping costs, and oh ya, not shipped half way around the world. I don't count my carbon footprint, but does anyone know how much carbon would be produced to have 4 or 5 containers of SIP"s shipped from South Africa or Asia to the United States. Never mind the enviornmental impacts of unregulated industries polluting our evnironment for the sake of profit.
I care greatly about the cost of building, but I will not compromise quality. Who do I call when the SIP's delaminate, do I need to learn to speak a foreign language just to build a house. How can I be assured that the product is being manufactured in the correct way? I know not much technology in SIP's, that is why the manufacturer I use just bought a million dollar piece of equipment to control moisture in the EXP process. These are the things I look for when chosing a SIP's company, not just the bottom line.
This seems like some foreign business man trying to convince us that he can build a cheap product for a cheap price. I hate to buy anything not made in the USA, not just because I believe products made here to be better, but also to keep our money here at home. Provide a job for my neighbors and friends, that will hopefully someday be able to afford to build their own home.
I don't want to get political but sending 100's of billions of dollars overseas seems like one of the ways this country got into this financial predicament in the first place. Is this really George Bush incognito, out sourcing of jobs is why we have this high unemployment rate.
Wait till you try and get the building inspectors to except engineering spec's from Chine to build your house. GOOD LUCK with that one.
Tom Pittsley
www.eebt.org |
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"Don't be afraid to go out on a limb. That's where the fruit is." Jackson Brown |
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leonhuang
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Posts:20
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| 05/02/2009 6:08 AM |
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some of you are making money on SIPs, i understand what you mean by saying all these words.
some are buyers who have already paid the extra money, i also understand why you want to prove that you did correctly.
Some are talking about country and jobs, ohh i guess you or your families may had lost your jobs a couple of times.
Some one is talking about green, a smart word, haha. But still does not get the point.
Repeat: all i want to say is the margin is too big for them. or otherwise, the market is too small:)
Explain: I am not talking about importing from China or Africa, I am talking about local manufacturer. Who do some of you think importing is only way to lower price? Don't you know our americans export billions tons of sillicon chips overseas and made trillions of dollars? Don't you know drug makers also do that? so do air plane makers, missle makers....I bet the guy talking baout country does not know that for sure, he might only know labor works, such as bricks and cement, okay, including SIPS, and automakers' screwdrivers, but not intelligence products.
Why the economy is in trouble? Because some of you spend more than you make. And some of you make more than you should. Money went into fewer guys pocket, and those guys build factories worldwide. Look around almost all brandname companies, who does not own foreign factories? It's not foreign people making money from us, it is fewer guys sucking more money from us. Look at those oilly monsters and financial monsters, look at those so-called computer "genius", they make money not only from you and me, they make money worldwide, this is where the moey goes. Don't you understand? Don't be fooled. An old saying,"when world is in trouble, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer."
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leonhuang
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Posts:20
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| 05/02/2009 6:24 AM |
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And it's happening righ now. Tax payer's money is sent to them, business owners will have many compensations to keep the business running....what did you get? $100 tax return?
But waht else can we do? what else can the administration do? It's a game of capital.
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Brawler
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Basic Member
Posts:127
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| 05/02/2009 7:31 AM |
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| Leon, its clear. You should build some panels. You will probably get stinking rich, and get big tax breaks. Good luck! |
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leonhuang
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Posts:20
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| 05/02/2009 9:11 AM |
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| probably not. SIP is not widely accepted even here in america. |
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Mike H
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Posts:9
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| 05/30/2009 3:30 PM |
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I don't think it's possible to read a single thread on the internet that doesn't at some point degrade into an argument. That being said, Both sides of this issue make valid points, and both sides of this issue have made some bone-headed assumptions. Pulling numbers out of thin air, along with the posters lack of M.B.A.'s in Operations Development and Finance, make it hard for anyone not seriously dedicated to this trist to take it seriously.
Here's an academic short course on economics: Start-up costs are dead-weight costs that can't be recovered, and if you view markups as ROI for your dead-weight costs, then you ARE screwing your customers. The reason the "Big Boys" in SIP manufacturing seem to be "in line" with each others' price points is because the industry is an oligarchy without enough players to make it competitive - partly because the "Big Boys" are trying to force propriety over a non-patent system, (if you don't believe me, try finding information about manufacturing techniques and materials suppliers...good luck,) and Leon is somewhat right in his assumption that SIP technology is not widely accepted by American consumers or builders, thus, demand is trailing supply and the price is high. And all this talk about certification seems a little shady, given that the IRC, Section R614, doesn't require any particular "certification" for SIPs built to IRC guidelines.
Competition is good for business. It's good for consumers. Oligarchies and monopolies are self destructive, which is evidenced by the fact that an overwhelming majority of American homes are still stick built, and will continue to be for a long time. The price has to be so irresistable that builders/owners can't ignore it. Those "long term energy savings" numbers make for good press, but they simply aren't that effective on most buyers. Americans want value today, not 30 years from now. |
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cmkavala
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Posts:1415
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| 05/30/2009 6:39 PM |
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MikeH;
the competiveness of SIPs constrcution goes beyond the initial cost of the product. Most builders hate change! So a consumer hoping to build with SIPs will be very often talked out of using them by a builder because a stick builder is afraid of the unknown.
Framing subs are guilty of the same sabotage and will often not give any price reduction for the quicker assembly of SIPs.
This results in no benefit to the consumer.
I experienced this early on when I first dabbled with SIPs. When we decided to build strictly with SIPs we knew we would need to do this with our own employees so we could pass along the labor savings to the consumer.
Our turnkey residential projects are typically the same price as our competitors block/stick pricing, our commercial projects have been coming in slightly below our competition. We do offer value now |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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Mike H
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Posts:9
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| 05/30/2009 8:46 PM |
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Chris,
Point taken, as it works both ways. I believe SIPs can be a superior choice for many reasons, but I don't think they will come into their own within the marketplace until there are more producers, especially small local operations. I am curious, are you manufacturing your panels and building homes too? I am convinced that providing the front end and the back end too is the best way to bring real value to the potential home buyer. Any thoughts on that? |
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cmkavala
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Posts:1415
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| 05/30/2009 9:15 PM |
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MikeH;
we have 2 companies Sip Supply, Inc. /Florida (resellers of several panel systems) and Marquis Const. & Dev. Inc. (contractors Lic. in 3 states)
Between the 2 companies we offer supply only, supply and install shell, and full turnkey construction ( depending on geographic location)
The residential side is always consumer driven, but lately with the interest in commercial "Green" and LEED certified projects more developers and builders are leaning towards SIPs to accomplish their green and energy efficient buildings, they are also realizing the speed of SIPs construction is cutting weeks off their bank loan interest, so on multi- million dollar projects it is a significant value. |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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Gsfrey
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Posts:80
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| 06/21/2009 12:57 PM |
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I think I would also introduce the value arguement to this conversation. How much do you really need to drop your price to compete with stick builders? The fact is you don't. So why would you?
Could SIP's be put into the market cheaper? Of course and everythone on this board knows it. But there is no reason to do so because it can be a cheaper alternative without having to cut prices. If you can introduce a builder to the concept of total cost, you can compete for his business. Builders are, after all, in it for the money.
I would no more buy a SIP panel from China that I would walk through hell in gasoline underwear. There is no need to. The product is better, stronger and when built and sold correctly it is a better product. There is no reason to cut the price. And yes, I am in the SIP manufacturing and building business and know my costs exactly. |
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Greg Freyermuth
915-256-7563, Phone
GregFreyermuth@elp.rr.com, E-Mail |
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The Sipper
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Posts:133
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Mike H
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Posts:9
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| 06/21/2009 8:07 PM |
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This all sounds eerily like there are only a few people in this business, and they are very afraid of losing market share by being competitive on price points. That problem does tend to create it's own solution in the end though. So enjoy the money while you can make it.
I'm not criticizing SIP's, or honest businesses, or capitalism, and I'm aware of the long term cost advantages, but I can't help but feel like this industry is being run with a pawn shop mentality. Most of the posts, (not all, but most,) from SIP business owners is riddled with the language of protectionism, oligarchical practices, and price collusion, not competition, growth, commerce, and value.
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retired1
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Posts:9
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| 06/21/2009 11:08 PM |
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| Again, AMEN! |
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PanelCrafters
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Posts:1408
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| 06/22/2009 8:14 AM |
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Posted By Mike H on 06/21/2009 8:07 PM
Most of the posts, (not all, but most,) from SIP business owners is riddled with the language of protectionism, oligarchical practices, and price collusion, not competition, growth, commerce, and value.
Wow, and this from someone with only 3 posts!
Actually, it sounds like the reasons that we don't have any jobs in this country anymore.  |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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Mike H
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Posts:9
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| 06/22/2009 8:38 AM |
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They don't teach economics and business in schools anymore, do they?
As economies grow and develop, technology moves the factors of production from labor to capital. In other words, the more sophisticated the economy becomes, more jobs that are labor intensive are exported to countries that have a lot of cheap labor, and those jobs are replaced by highly skilled, capital (machinery, technology) intensive jobs.
The reason Americans have suffered from job loss is because we got lazy and took it for granted that those jobs would always be there, instead of preparing ourselves for the shift toward capital intensive industries. Japan saw this coming many decades ago, and spent money on the infrastructure and education to position them at the forefront. We chose to rely on the old "We're America, nothing can hurt us" philosophy instead. Competition did nothing to hurt our economy or job markets. Protectionism and greed did. |
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PanelCrafters
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Posts:1408
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| 06/22/2009 9:37 AM |
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Posted By Mike H on 06/22/2009 8:38 AM
As economies grow and develop, technology moves the factors of production from labor to capital. In other words, the more sophisticated the economy becomes, more jobs that are labor intensive are exported to countries that have a lot of cheap labor, and those jobs are replaced by highly skilled, capital (machinery, technology) intensive jobs.
Yup. The jobs were exported....But they never returned...
The reason Americans have suffered from job loss is because we got lazy and took it for granted that those jobs would always be there, instead of preparing ourselves for the shift toward capital intensive industries. Japan saw this coming many decades ago, and spent money on the infrastructure and education to position them at the forefront. We chose to rely on the old "We're America, nothing can hurt us" philosophy instead. Competition did nothing to hurt our economy or job markets. Protectionism and greed did.
Free Trader Huh? In reality America used to have some amount of protectionism. And we thrived. It was when 'Free Trade' was introduced(like we can compete with cheap labor countries) that this mess started. We were simply trading jobs, not goods.
Now the jobs are gone....And 'technology' ain't gona save us(Work visas have given all those jobs away also)...
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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