propaneBeGone
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| 08/20/2008 10:22 AM |
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It has a high COP and it will go up to 145 F leaving water temp so looks very flexible for Hydronic Heat and Dom. Hot water.
Also may be cutting edge/new technology. Anyone have any input on reliability, etc. Also comes in more 50 hz Euro models than the one 60 hz US size. Is it built in Europe?? |
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joe.ami
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| 08/20/2008 12:40 PM |
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Haven't used 1 yet, the 145 degrees only it EWT is 32 or higher so it's not solving problems for me here in MI. Just introduced in November you can hardly find it on their web site. It would cut the density of in floor radiant loops or offer uses to commercial hot water production.
J |
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Just a Mechanic;
Geothermal; Savings Underfoot |
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engineer
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| 08/21/2008 1:35 PM |
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It'll be interesting to see if this could handle hot water baseboards. I know those normally run at 160-180, but if they are a bit oversized to begin with and homeowner also tightens the house, reducing design load...
Not necessarily an ideal setup, but a heckuva lot easier to retrofit into heating only baseboard apps.
I'd be worried about reliability - may run at very high refrigerant pressures - more vulnerable to leaks and hard on compressor, reversing valve (if any) |
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Without data, you only have an opinion. |
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propaneBeGone
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| 08/21/2008 2:58 PM |
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| I am a little concerned about reliability.... specs are really nice but I guess I fall back on the idea not to be the first one to use it, it must have high refrig pressures - cutting edge tech no doubt. I'm leaning towards the FHP WW water to water series. 410A refrig and pretty respectable COPs in the 100 - 110 LWTs my radiant floor will be using much of the time. Anyone using one of these? |
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joe.ami
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| 08/23/2008 12:02 AM |
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Good point PPBG, as R-410 is already high on pressure I'd be curious to see the high side at 145 LWT.
You're thinking what I'm thinking Engineer, but for my customers and your mom the 145 again is not achieved below the 32 degree EWT mark.
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tuffluckdriller
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| 08/25/2008 10:18 AM |
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If you look at the data tables for R-410a, you'll see the head pressures to reach 145 deg. are very HIGH. In fact, to get to the 145 mark, the temp of the refrigerant is most likely hitting 180 deg. or so. Also, the reached temp of 145 water is at the end of the run cycle. It's not a constant source. It's working hard to get it up to there, and when it finally does, capacity and efficiency have been seriously reduced.
With such high head pressures, I'm a skeptic that will wait to see someone else be the guinea pig... |
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Clark Timothy (clark@pinksdx.com)
VP sales, Tuff Luck Geothermal Drilling
Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap! |
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propaneBeGone
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| 08/25/2008 10:56 AM |
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it does make me nervous. While we're talking about it, I have noticed the significantly lower pressures for R-22 equipment.
FHP water to water comes in R-22 or 410a. Apples to Apples, Entering Source Water temp at 40 deg, EWT at 110 deg,
R-22 machine shows disch press 280 - 300 PSI. R410A machine shows 455 PSI - 480 PSI.
The specs list slightly higher water temps for the R-22 machine as well, while never giving a "max" temp in either case. For R-22 machine, they show a LWT of 130 deg (COP 3.3 @ 50 deg source). For R410a machine, the max listed is LWT of 125 deg (COP 2.9 @ 50 deg source).
Since an extra 5 degs in this range may be important in my app, should I be considering an R-22 machine ? Is it expected to get at least 5 deg higher LWTs or am I misreading this?
Do R-22 machines have less problems in the refrigererant circuit? |
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tuffluckdriller
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| 08/26/2008 12:08 AM |
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I'd have to point out, again, that your maximum reached temp. will be at the end of the run cycle. You won't see it being steadily produced during most of the run cycle. What will happen, most likely, is that the load will finally be satisfied (if at all) and then the water temp will come up to that 125 or 130 or 140 or whatever. Heat pumps don't act just like boilers. They can produce a certain delta T. So, when the return temp from the load (radiant's return water) is getting upwards of 110-130, you'll be seeing a discharge off of the heat pump (radiant supply) of maybe 130-145 deg. F.
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Clark Timothy (clark@pinksdx.com)
VP sales, Tuff Luck Geothermal Drilling
Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap! |
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propaneBeGone
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| 08/26/2008 10:07 AM |
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Hi TLD,
Thanks for the info! About the 10 or 15 deg delta, this is what I expect. We won't let the water get cold, we'll have a buffer tank with a setpoint reset to outside temp. At any given time, we'll have a HWS setpoint, say 100 deg right now. We'll expect to cycle the heat pump on at maybe 96 deg, and off at 104 deg tank temp. This way the heat pump will be able to keep up with the load and won't be faced with the task of bringing cold water all the way up to temp. With a well insulated buffer tank, should work fine. Now we just have to pick the best machine for both whole season lower HWS setpoints, avg 95 - 100 deg water, and the cold days where we'd like to get the tank near 125 - 130.
I'd like to hear what people have found to be the highest practical LWTs on water to water heat pumps they've installed...
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engineer
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| 08/26/2008 8:21 PM |
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R-22 shall not be in any new equipment after 2010, and shall not be manufactured after 2020, so it is on its way to obsolescence.
That said, my guess is that R-22 will continue to be available via required recovery from junked systems for years after 2020 |
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Without data, you only have an opinion. |
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joe.ami
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| 09/01/2008 7:53 PM |
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I'm one that is not sold on any advantages of R-410, nor can I believe that higher operating pressures have no impact on compressor life. Also as a blended it's applications are not universal. That said, Carrier has jumped in with both feet and that alone could make superior alternatives go the way of the beta-max. I'm not suggesting that anything is superior currently, simply that Carrier as the largest residential A/C manufacturer certainly will impact R&D in other directions.
I'm not opposed to folks purchasing R-22 units currently, they are less expensive as is the refrigerant itself, and barring leaks type of refrigerant is inconsequential. R-410 today is nearly twice the price of R-22 for me and 1/3 more than NU22.
Higher end water source units have made the switch to R-410, therefore it's the only way to get 2 stage equipment from most the manufacturers.
Earthsource DX systems use NU22 while Earthlinked is moving towards R407C and can't use blendeds at all.
I agree with you on the use of a buffer tank for the radiant application. On top of other advantages you mentioned it also helps to avoid short cycling the heat pump.
J |
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Geothermal; Savings Underfoot |
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senecarr
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| 10/03/2008 12:36 PM |
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This does sound interesting. The idea of radiant flooring in the future has a certain appeal to me, and maybe by the time I have the capacity to install such a unit, they'll have had enough guinea pigs to work everything out.
I seem to recall one mention that heat output is generally linear with EWT, which would make CoP close to linear (maybe I'm off with the pump increase factor). That being the case, if EWT went down to 15 F, we'd still be looking at about 4.05 CoP (based on the stated 4.2 GSHP useage CoP).
I imagine the greater number of European models and the "European style cabinetry" has to do with radiant flooring being far more popular abroad than it is in the US, though it's now catching on. Sure would be the nicest way to heat a house that has rugrats in it. |
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propaneBeGone
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| 10/03/2008 12:53 PM |
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Radiant floor heat is very nice. If you can install either in the slab, or in a "thin slab" 1.5" or so (above plywood subfloor) you can heat with very low temps, 90s - 100 or 105 in coldest wx, maybe even cooler water in some floor designs. The feeling is that radiant offers the same "comfort level" as forced air heat with the radiant room temp several degs. lower.
So marry the two, efficient radiant floor heat, with low temp water from geo, and you should have a great system. I'm working on getting my radiant floor system off propane water heater and onto a water to water heat pump, there are a number of people on this site who have such a system, maybe we'll here from them...
BTW, other forms of radiant will work (just not quite as efficient), staple up under the subfloor for instance. The key there is to get as much pipe installed as practical and heat exchange plates, all in an effort to be able to use lower temp water. I hear these warm boards are pretty good but I suspect the water temp may still be somewhat higher than in-the-slab. |
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senecarr
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| 10/03/2008 1:49 PM |
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I'm considering it for when I look into changing the heating system for an area that's kind of an extension in the house I recently bought. The previous owner put in around 1500 sq. in two floors over the garage when the place was built without putting in any vents, just electric baseboard heaters. The main house has decent duct work (turns out the installer used to work with Joe, small world)/.
Since I don't have a total need to use this area, I'm looking at keeping it low heated, but Joe and I have been looking through a veritable laundry list of options about what to do to heat it when the time comes. Knowing that I'd also like to replace flooring at some point, the idea of radiant flooring with a mini-duct system to run the A/C appealed to me, but then I found myself rather disappointed by the CoP of radiant flooring units. |
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BluSource
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| 10/05/2008 10:19 AM |
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I recently found a specification sheet for the new THW Heat Pumps and was very interested.
We are faced with a huge opportunity for retrofits, but struggle with the ever so popular baseboard hydronic heating systems.
A higher water temperature output really opens up some possibilities for more economical systems.
By the way, I'm TylerP @ BluSource. We are a new design/installation outfit in Portsmouth, RI. |
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BluSource Energy
Portsmouth, Rhode Island |
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senecarr
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| 10/05/2008 10:38 AM |
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| Yes, that's what I've seen as the interest in installers on this forum for this unit. It looks like, especially with the numerous European models, the system is really intended for radiant floor heating. Yet, if it works for baseboard hydronic systems, I'd imagine climatemaster is going to look at more 60hz models and not try to sell the "European" cabinetry. |
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propaneBeGone
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| 01/15/2009 12:31 PM |
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| just bumping this to see if, several months later, anyone has used the Climatemaster THW "high temp" water to water HP. I am interested in using it to feed my radiant heat floor, via a buffer tank. Possibly an Air Handler as well. |
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