fly840
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| 10/28/2008 6:12 PM |
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Not panicing yet!!! One wall (out of three) has a minor leak during heavy long rains. The wall is 10.5 feet tall, has a membrane that is termite resistant and does not require any additional backfill protection, and the fill consists of Alabama slate and clay. The leak manifests itself at the top seem of the second ICF block from the poured floor. Grading is not complete and needs to be swailed away from the house on that side, another words, at this point in time there is standing water against the wall when it rains.
Before I begin finishing the basement I will get the landscaping completed and cross my fingers. I am most concerned that I maybe have a void in the cement as well as a compromised membrane. Is it worth probing the wall, maybe with a thin hot or even cold wire to see if I do indeed have a void. If I do discover a void, any problem with tearing a way some of the interior styrofoam and treating the void with hydraulic cement then re-foaming the damage I cause to the blocks?
Any help would be appreciated.
Bill |
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Paul Stevens
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| 10/28/2008 8:55 PM |
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First problem I would see would be the slate and clay used to backfill. When backfilling you should always try to use clean, free-draining backfill, ie. Sand. The problem with your backfill is that it doesn't allow the water to quickly drain to the weeping tile and away from the house. Second, is that no matter how hard we try, water, if given the chance, will always find a way in!! Your problem will probably disappear once you finish your grade and install eaves and downspouts, but since you do have a leak and are still under construction I would recommend digging up the 1 side to check for and tears in the waterproofing, repair if necessary, and then replace backfill with sand to the original height. Then once that is all done turn on the hose and soak the area to see if problem has been solved. It may seem like a lot of work but it is much better to solve it now instead of when you have carpet downstairs!
Paul Stevens |
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Vermonter
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| 10/28/2008 9:09 PM |
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| Even if you didn't have a void the water could saturate the concrete in that area unless you used a special waterproof mix. |
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wes
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Posts:637
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| 10/28/2008 9:29 PM |
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Paul,
Sand is not the best idea for backfill. In fact, it can hold a tremendous weight of water against your walls. Think about a hand full of wet sand vs dry sand. It does drain, but not fast enough. Use clean wash rock instead. It drains much faster and retains almost no water.
As for the Alabama shale and clay, I can't think of anything worse to use for fill. The shale will cut through your waterproofing, and the clay will retain water indefinitely. |
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Wes Shelby
Design Systems Group
Murray KY
wandr@ainweb.net |
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Alton
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| 10/28/2008 9:37 PM |
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| Washed river gravel drains better than crushed (fractured) rock. |
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Alton C. Keown
Residential Designer and Construction Technology Consultant
Auburn, Alabama
E-mail: alton at auburn dot edu |
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miformguy
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| 10/28/2008 10:01 PM |
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Bill
Standing water at any time against the wall will put most waterproofing to its most challenging test. As others have said...clay and shale is probably the least desirable backfill. One thing that has always surprised me is the lack of water drainage control. Backfill and waterproofing/dampproofing only works when it channels water down. Once water gets to the bottem it has to go somewhere. When I first got into this business I had a factory "pro installer" come to a job to show us how to build with icfs. When he got there he was furious that we had footings with no slab and we were building our wall off of the footings and not on a slab. In my area in Michigan we always pour our footings then start our walls. We have a drainage tile inside and outside of the footings. The floor slab is poured so the bottem of the slab rests on the footing and extends 4" up the wall. If for some reason water gets through the waterproofing it will possibly get through the wall at the bottem. Water takes the easiest route. The floor is 4" above the bottem of the wall so the water finds the inside tile and is drained away. When building on a slab the bottem of the wall is the finished floor.....I am finding this is the most common method south of the frost line.......if water goes under the wall it goes onto your floor. Sorry to get distracted but water management is more important to me than water proofing. Get your surface drainage done and you might get lucky. If you have a high water table you will have water issues. If you want to check for voids without getting too invasive or high tech simply take a key hole saw or equivelent and stab the wall at the seams in the blocks. It will leave almost no trace. Even stabs in the middle of the blocks will not do much damage. Good luck.
Virgil Schmidt
ICF Builders LLC
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wes
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Posts:637
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| 10/29/2008 6:18 AM |
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Alton is correct. The rounder, smoother river gravel is the best. But if it is not available, use any clean washed rock in lieu of any other type of fill.
Well said Virgil.
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Wes Shelby
Design Systems Group
Murray KY
wandr@ainweb.net |
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fly840
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Posts:38
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| 10/29/2008 9:49 AM |
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Thanks Virgil and all,
I actually built my blocks on the footing as well then poured the floor 4 inches against the bottom ICF block. I did only put tile on the outside as opposed to both. Thank you for taking the time with you comments. First thing I will do is get this thing graded properly. There were no springs in this excavation to my knowledge and I had to drill 220 feet to find water, so, I am hoping that proper outside water management will do the trick.
I should have went with a less invasive back fill, live and learn.
Thanks again,
Bill |
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Paul Stevens
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Posts:184
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| 10/29/2008 6:16 PM |
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Wes, you make a good point, to backfill with gravel is the best way to go but at some point you have to top off with something else, (can't make grass grow on stones!!) my choice would be the sand over clay and slate any day then top of with top soil. But at the end of the day you have to use what is available in your area. Proper grade so the water runs away is the best defense against leaky basements!!
Paul Stevens |
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Chris Johnson
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| 10/30/2008 12:46 AM |
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What membrane did you use that does not require any additional protection?
Regardless if you use peel and stick or some rubberized applied product a dimple board of some form should always be used. Anything less and no matter what the backfill material you use, you are truly putting the waterproofing to an extreme test.
People complain about the price of waterproofing, I look at it like life insurance, you must have it and hope to hell you never use it. |
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Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
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icicle earth home
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Posts:11
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| 11/15/2008 1:58 PM |
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ICF walls leak. we have a wall that is revealing water about seven feet above the footing. we used Form-a-Drain for the footing, then belt and suspendered it with perf pipe and gravel. then we had the wall professionally sprayed by ALl american Waterproofing. then we applied dimple board to channel the water to the perf pipe. backfill in this area was CDF to a width of 6 feet! there is no water from above as the next two levels stairstep over this wall a horizontal distance of about 40'
i'm thinking indoor swimming pool at this point!
icicleearthhome.blogspot.com
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irnivek
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Posts:308
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| 11/19/2008 10:05 AM |
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Wow mr. icicle, you are cold. And obviously frustrated. We call this phenomena SOS-stressed out homeowner syndrome. It will be featured in our upcooming book, "Memoirs of a Construction Wife"
"ICF walls leak" Really. And guns kill people and cars cause accidents right?
If you need help just ask. Don't beat up on the product, what you have is installation error plain and simple.
Kevin |
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greentree
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Posts:104
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| 11/19/2008 7:17 PM |
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Posted By fly840 on 10/29/2008 9:49 AM
Thanks Virgil and all,
I actually built my blocks on the footing as well then poured the floor 4 inches against the bottom ICF block. I did only put tile on the outside as opposed to both. Thank you for taking the time with you comments. First thing I will do is get this thing graded properly. There were no springs in this excavation to my knowledge and I had to drill 220 feet to find water, so, I am hoping that proper outside water management will do the trick.
I should have went with a less invasive back fill, live and learn.
Thanks again,
Bill
Does your tile go to daylight or go to a sump? |
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fly840
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Posts:38
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| 11/19/2008 10:55 PM |
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Tile goes to dayllight.
Bill |
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greentree
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Posts:104
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| 11/20/2008 8:43 AM |
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Grading may take care of it, especially if your able to achieve a decent slope, have you watched to see how much water is coming out of the tile when its raining and ponding? Proper backfill is crucial to allow water to go down and out, if its clay the water doesnt go the tile fast enough and finds another way: hydrostatic pressure and capillary action. You need to reduce the amount of water that has to find its way down against your foundation wall.
Last house I built had inner/outer tile to a sump located in field recieving large amounts of snowmelt in the spring and needs 2 pumps to control incoming water for a 2 week period, otherwise the sump is dry or at normal levels (lower third of tile level). If we hadnt put in the sump and were relying on outside tile to daylight the single outlet wouldnt have enough capacity to relieve the hydrostatic pressure and would probably result in a leaky basement at heavy rainfall or snowmelt periods. |
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