arkie6
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Basic Member
Posts:150
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| 11/06/2008 4:49 PM |
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I’m in the process of building my home (currently have the
footings poured) using Lite-Form ICFs with 6” core for the walk-out basement
and first floor.
The question I have is about hanging the floor trusses (4x2
plated open web trusses 16” deep, 19.2” OC) for the first floor. I’ve seen and studied the Simpson embedded ledger
hangers, but I’m not convinced this is the way to go. Embedded hangers that don’t require use of a
ledger seem like a stronger, quicker, and less expensive option. I’ve looked at the ICF Connect hangers, but
the light gauge (20 ga) of the plates concerns me. The RP Watkins hanger looks more substantial
with its 16 ga construction and cost wise is about the same or less than the
ICF Connect option since the Watkins hanger can be ordered by-the-piece whereas
ICF Connect sells them by the 25 piece box.
Another option I found while reviewing various ICF
manufacturers installation manuals was McMillan Joist Hangers shown in the 2008
Logix ICF manual. These are also 16 ga and appear similar in construction to
the RP Watkins hanger except they are deeper (9” vs. 6”) which would better accommodate
the 16” deep trusses that I plan to use. The Logix manual lists the manufacturer of
these hangers as New Tech Concrete Solutions with their phone number as
1-888-835-6655.
The above phone number no longer works and I can't find any info on the net for
McMillan joist hangers or New Tech Concrete Solutions. Has anyone used these
hangers? Are these hangers still
available? If so, does anyone have the current contact information for the
company?
What about the RP Watkins hanger? Anyone have any good or bad experience they
can share regarding this hanger? It
looks like a viable option, but it is a little frustrating dealing with and
getting information from them since everything is by phone or via faxed copies
of drawings that you can’t read the details on and payment has to be via bank
wire.
Thanks in advance for any info you can provide.
Alan
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rgb
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New Member
Posts:17
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| 11/08/2008 6:31 PM |
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The ICF connect hangers work just fine. They save a ton of time and money compared to ledger systems like Simpson's. They are easy to find and if you have a few left when the job is done it really is no big deal. (You can embed them in the top of the wall to hold down the roof trusses.)
rgb |
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Buntly
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:142
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| 11/09/2008 10:32 AM |
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The icf connects do work well. I just did a job with 16" deep floor trusses. They had a ribbon notch at each end, so after they were installed we ran a 2x4 inside the notch along the wall. This notch allows continuous support under the plywood between the joists (trusses). Floor trusses are easy to work with. We had 42' long trusses. We picked them up with a crane (probably could've done by hand) and set them in place. Unlike I-joists the trusses are very stable and don't flex and twist during installation. The floor trusses also elimate the need for all the spacer blocks that are required when using I-joists. It may not seem like a big deal, but a significant amount of time is saved if floor trusses are used when using the icf-connect system. I have used the simpson system many times as well. This system also works well.
Good Luck
Bunt
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arkie6
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:150
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| 11/09/2008 3:19 PM |
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Thanks for the info. That helps to alleviate some of my concerns with the ICF Connect plates. And the folks at ICF Connect were very helpful and knowledgeable when I talked to them.
I was also planning on leaving a notch in the end of each truss to allow installation of a 2x4 ribbon around the perimeter to fully support the floor decking. My trusses will only be ~32' long, but I still plan on having a crane set them.
Alan |
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James Eggert
Registered Users
Veteran Member
Posts:1058
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| 11/11/2008 9:47 AM |
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I've used both types of hangars and both work well.
I didn't think the 19.2 was worth any savings by the time all was said and done. The repetition of 16 and 24 is so ingrained, that an inordinate amount of time has to be spent rereading and working the tape. It wound up more of a pain than gain!
However, another issue is because of the "desired" spacing when using the ICFconnect, it is important to determine your spacing on the wall when you get maybe to the third course, BEFORE you put your bracing in the way. Then you can plan your bracing to miss the insertion points, because as soon as you move off the 19.2 to accomodate in-the-way bracing, everything turns into a mess! |
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Take Care
Jim
Design/Build/Consulting
"Not So Big" Design Proponent |
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arkie6
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:150
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| 11/11/2008 1:58 PM |
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Thanks for the input. I did struggle a bit at first with the 16" OC vs 19.2" OC spacing since my ICF ties are 8" OC. But since the trusses are 3.5" wide, I figured I could just shift the truss and truss hanger plate over +/-0.75" to clear any ties that I might land on without really having any adverse impact when the decking is laid down. 16" OC spacing of the 3.5" wide floor trusses just seems like overkill while the 24" OC spacing was a bit wide considering some areas will be tiled. 19.2" just seemed like a good compromise since there will only be 15.7" between each truss. Plus, I'm using 1-1/8" subfloor. If I did go with 16" OC spacing (12.5" between trusses) I would probably just go with 3/4" subfloor.
I've also been considering placing my bracing on the outside of the walls instead of the inside. This would avoid any interferences with the truss hangers. Another reason for considering outside bracing is that I plan to pour the basement floor slab before I stack the walls. This floor slab will then provide the inside edge support for the wall plus it will be easier to finish the slab this way. On the outside edge of the wall I intend to anchor a 2x4 cleat to the footing to hold the outside edge of the ICF form. If I put the bracing on the inside of the wall I will have to attach it to the concrete slab. I was intending on staining the concrete and leaving it as is and anchoring bracing to it would leave me with some holes to deal with. However, with the bracing on the outside I could set it on top of the 2x4 cleat and anchor the back with stakes driven in the ground.
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bobd
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New Member
Posts:11
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| 11/22/2008 8:52 AM |
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Arkie, are you pouring the first course with a planned cold joint or are you leaving it unpoured, braced and hoping for the best with regard to damage, etc while pouring the slab?
I'll be interested in hearing how this went, how you set it up and any lessons learned, please be sure to report back to us! Thanks, Bob |
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arkie6
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:150
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| 11/22/2008 11:15 AM |
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Bob, the basement floor slab is getting poured and finished before any ICF wall forms get assembled.
There will be a cold joint between the basement ICF wall and the footing. But this will be ~5.5" below the top of my basement slab. I will have gravel and drain tile along the inside and outside of the footings draining to daylight, so if any water gets through this cold joint, it will be below the slab and hopefully drain away. Plus I will have water proofing installed outside of the ICF foam on all walls below grade all the way down to and over the edge of the footings.
The plan is to backfill inside the footings (after plumbing and drain tile set) with coarse clean crushed stone so that it is even with the top of the footings. Then anchor a 2x4 (long edge horizontal) to the footing ~1.5" beyond the outside edge of where I want the slab, then screw a 2x6 (long edge vertical) to the inside edge of the 2x4. This 5.5" tall 2x6 will be the form for the concrete slab. To me, this will make it much easier to screed and finish the floor slab over the top of the 2x wood forms rather than up against the edge of the foam forms. Plus I plan on cutting control joints 4' OC in a diagonal pattern for the finished stained concrete floor - having the foam wall forms in place would make this nearly impossible. This is probably more time consuming than doing it the other way, but I'm doing the work myself and am not in a rush to finish. Also, these 2x4s and 2x6s are what I originally used to form my footings using Fast Foot, so I don't have any measurable added material cost by doing it this way. Plus, a friend at work did his basement this way a few years ago and said it all worked out great.
Then I plan on installing 1/4" thick DOW XPS protection board (comes in 4'x50' folded sheets) over the crushed stone up to the 2x forms (to keep the stone from punching through the vapor barrier). Then 6 mil (at least) plastic vapor barrier. Then 1" thick sheets of DOW XPS insulation board all over up to the edge of the 2x forms (note that under-slab insulation is not normally done down here in the south, but I at least want a good thermal break between the slab and the ground). Then install 6x6 6/6 steel mesh and 1/2" rebar (around perimeter and under interior load bearing walls) for the slab and do the concrete pour and finish.
Then later on after the slab is set and sufficiently cured I will remove the 2x4 and 2x6 concrete slab forms. I will use this 2x4 then to anchor to the footing ~11" beyond the slab edge to form an outside cleat for the ICF forms (6" concrete core, 11" wide overall).
Then the ICF forms get stacked and braced to ~10' high for the basement pour with 1/2" Grade 60 rebar 16" OC vertical and horizontal.
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ICFconstruction
Registered Users
Advanced Member
Posts:625
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| 11/22/2008 11:18 AM |
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| I think you are going about these things inefficiently. Pour the floor after the walls, braced from the inside. Use Simpsons they are cheaper because you need fewer, a mid-bearing truss so your double rim can be used to fasten drywall and cove. Instead of altering trusses for your 2x4 ribbon, put 2x4 blocking in between them. |
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Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net |
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bobd
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New Member
Posts:11
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| 11/22/2008 11:48 AM |
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| Arkie, Thanks for that explanation! It actually sounds doable for a single man operation, not the easiest perhaps but certainly sounds like it'd work (not that I'm an expert BTW). Thanks again and be sure to let us know how it works out for you. Bob |
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