Farmboy
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| 11/18/2008 6:12 PM |
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I've installed bracing that has tabs at the bottom of the vertical piece through which you screw to the floor and on another project a different brand without the tabs.
Does anyone have a preference? With the bottom of the brace screwed to the floor and the block attached up the brace, there's no way that wall will move from its initial position. But has anyone experienced any problems with bracing that doesn't screw the vertical piece down? Is foam gluing the bottom of the 1st course sufficient to keep it from moving horizontally? DT |
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Paul Stevens
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| 11/18/2008 6:21 PM |
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If you are talking about attaching the first course to the footing or slab, then as far as I am concerned, the only way to hold it down and have it remain perfectly straight and square is to use 2 1/2" steel track. Once the first row sits in the track it ain't going anywhere!!!!
Paul Stevens |
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Farmboy
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| 11/18/2008 7:00 PM |
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| Paul, Although I agree the steel track will keep the block from going anywhere I was really asking about the bottom of the vertical strongback. Where it rests on the floor or footing, some brands have tabs that project from the bottom of the strongback. We had tabs on one project and screwed the strongback to the floor decking. Another project you didn't screw the strongback to the floor because there were no tabs. Dave |
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Chris Johnson
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| 11/18/2008 8:54 PM |
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From what I understand that hole to attach the strongback to the floor/footing is to meet OSHA compliance...now the question becomes does anyone actually put the screw in there?
Foam works fine or as Paul stated use steel track, that screw may work fine where the brace sits but the distance in between strongbacks needs support as well.
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Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
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Farmboy
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| 11/18/2008 11:59 PM |
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| The block distributor I am working with supplies bracing without tabs on the strongback, so I'll either use the metal channel Paul mentioned and foam adhesive. Thanks for the feedback. |
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Chris Johnson
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| 11/19/2008 12:07 AM |
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We put the metal track on one side (usually the inside) (and only if your employees remember to put it in the trailer prior to driving 250 miles to a job and notice it's missing and none available for who knows how far of a distance, then foam on both sides (Can you guess what happened last week?)) and spray foam the other.
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Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
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SoCalScott
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| 11/19/2008 5:06 AM |
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From my experience, the strongback does not need to be screwed to the floor, only the turnbuckle. We have used steel track for placing the first courses, but not continuous. If for some reason the foundation or footing is not level (go figure) you will need to be able to either shim or trim the bottom of the first course to achieve level. This is hard to do if you have a continuous track.
Typically the bracing doesn't get installed until the 4th or 5th course after you have leveled the first two and glued them into place. The strongback should not kick out or at the bottom if the walls are glued sufficiently and the strongback is adequately screwed to the icf webs (one screw per course).
I was dealing with a local builder that didn't believe me on this topic and anchored his strongbacks to the foundation for his first project. On his second project, I convinced him to try it without anchoring them, it worked, and he hasn't done it on any project since.
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Cattail Bill
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| 11/19/2008 8:51 AM |
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I believe that Chris is correct on the OSHA issue, but lets look at this from a differant approach, We do not live in a perfect world and should the forms get pushed by a collapse of the bank or a blow out occur at some point this could in fact cause the brace to kick out and then you would have the domino effect.
We have always recommended that the brace be anchored at the base of the stiff back, granted the number of times this has actually been of value is probably min but the one time something happens and some one gets killed or injured you will be money ahead if you used the brace properly.
Keep in mind that the work comp company would investigate an incident and could find you neglagent if you do not use the product the way the factory recommends.
Remember we live in a litigious society so it is important to use products the way the producer recommends. |
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irnivek
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| 11/19/2008 9:54 AM |
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No steel tracks to the floor, no screws in strongbacks down to footer is our method. Just foam glue. Never had a problem causing safety.
In rare wet occasions, we have cleated the inside wall to prevent outside cave-ins from causing an issue.
Kevin |
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Manfred
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| 11/20/2008 7:08 PM |
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| good point, Kevin. We only cleat the brace on the opposite side of a tee-wall as insurance against movement during the pour. |
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Manfred Knobel
Moss Pointe Builders, Inc. |
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FlaICF
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| 11/21/2008 8:52 AM |
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| We use j-runner which is no more than galv. steel stud track with one leg longer than the other. Makes dropping the forms into the track easier .We like the track for several reasons. Keeps layout straight, allows for adjustment of bottom courses, gives another fastening surface if needed and gives piece of mind at pour time. Alignment system we use has no feet at the bottom for fastening vertical strongback. have had no need when using track. |
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ICFconstruction
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| 11/21/2008 8:07 PM |
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We have done a lot of ICFs. Kevin is right, no track, just foam to chalk line on footing. And whatever you do, do not put one side only IN a track, it can cause your wall to lean.
No need to fasten the strong-back down unless it is a outside corner brace with 2 turnbuckles, like the ReechCraft corner. |
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Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net |
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Chris Johnson
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| 11/21/2008 11:25 PM |
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Posted By ICFconstruction on 11/21/2008 8:07 PM
And whatever you do, do not put one side only IN a track, it can cause your wall to lean.
How and where?
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Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
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ICFconstruction
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| 11/22/2008 9:46 PM |
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| On the footing a 2.5" track that you could set 2.5" one side of a Reward form in. |
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Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net |
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Paul Stevens
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| 11/23/2008 12:17 PM |
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I have been using steel track for 5 years now. I have tried all of the before mentioned ideas. Personally I will continue using track since I have been getting the best results. Someone mentioned that it gets the wall to lean if you only track one side. That is all I do. I will use the outside if on top of a footing and on the inside if on top of a slab (that way the wall is perfectly straight for the trim, nothing worse than looking down a finished wall and seeing wavy trim because the foam didn't hold). Once you plum the walls with the bracing there will be no more leaning.
I no longer have to worry about whether the foam will hold due to the cold or wet conditions, working in Ontario you constantly have that problem. In the past we have used the foam and would hear it pulling away from the footings when we adjusted the bracing. Another person said they only use track in sections because they have to shim the block to get it level. As long as you do your own footings this should not be a problem. Buy a laser level, take extra care when setting the tops of the boards, use more stakes than normal, keep the laser going during the pour and keep checking the wet concrete. It is much easier and less time consuming to trowel out wet concrete to get the footings level than to adjust the blocks by cutting and shimming. Once I start laying block I know that I don't need to check the top of second course because the footings are bang on, (although I will still eye down the tops just to make sure).
After visiting Chris in California and watching how he needs to set the anchor bolts at the top of the wall before the pour by attaching them to 1x2 and then screwing that to the track set on the top of the wall, I have now adapted that process to my work as well, and must admit that I have never got my walls so straight, the track also makes a nice smooth surface to trowel off to as well. Some of my customers who have viewed other jobs have commented on how neat my walls look. And thats how I keep busy. Now I know that others will say..."we don't do that, thats a waste of time and money, we do it this way or we do it that way" which is fine, every one has their own ideas. I just wanted to correct those people who misinform others by saying things like 'track makes the walls lean' which is not true, inexperience makes the walls lean, trying to rush a job makes the walls lean.
I used to have 2x cleats on the footing in the past to hold the walls in place, especially in the corners and the T's, but it became time consuming to go around after the pour and remove them, and now I had all this extra scrap wood. I put the track down once and leave it.
Well I think thats enough out of me for this subject, I am sure I can sit back now and have people tell me that I have it all wrong!!
Paul Stevens |
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Paul Stevens
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| 11/23/2008 12:23 PM |
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| Any one know how to downsize a jpeg file to be able to post a picture, I have some I would like to post but they all seem to be too big???
Paul Stevens |
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dmaceld
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| 11/23/2008 4:02 PM |
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Posted By Paul Stevens on 11/23/2008 12:23 PM
Any one know how to downsize a jpeg file to be able to post a picture, I have some I would like to post but they all seem to be too big???
Paul Stevens
First thing, use a photo editing program like Photo Shop Elements, Paint Shop Pro, Irfanview, etc. Resize the photo to 800 x 600 pixel size. In the resize dialog check mark or select resample option. Then, if that doesn't bring it down to less than 100kb save it again, to jpg format, with a reduction in jpeg quality. It's an option when you select "save as." Set the jpeg quality to 70 to 80. I find 75 works good. That reduces the range of colors in the photo with no noticeable, to the eye, reduction in color quality.
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Building house - what a way to spend retirement! It's done! We're living in it! |
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Paul Stevens
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| 11/23/2008 7:52 PM |
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| dmaceld, thanks for the advice, I think I have it figured out now
Paul Stevens |
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Chris Johnson
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| 11/24/2008 8:53 PM |
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You like that top track EH!!!
Are you wet setting AB's?
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Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
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Paul Stevens
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| 11/25/2008 4:29 PM |
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Yes, EH! I do like it, I like it a lot!!! Yes Chris, up here in Canada, we are still allowed to wet set AB's, I am sure you haven't forgotten, have you? But that is not me doing it in the picture, it's the Homeowner.
Paul Stevens |
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