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dirkhooley
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Posts:6
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| 11/30/2008 4:31 AM |
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I came across this site a few weeks ago and I have noticed the abundance of expert knowledge that is given out for free. This forum is really a great resource and as a construction management student with a term paper due in a few weeks, I feel that it is my duty to take full advantage of your expertise. I have searched the web for a while but have only been finding what the block manufacturers are saying about their blocks. Of course the factories think their blocks are the best. I don't care what the manufacturers say, I want to know what the people who build with these products have to say. I am looking for the opinions of the real men (and i suppose some women) who know these products better than anyone. So for anyone who is willing to give me their time, I am going to post a series of questions that i would like you to answer. This will be sort of an on line interview.
1. What is your name?
2. What is your background and what are you personal experiences with ICFs? In other words, what credentials do you have and why does your opinion matter in the world of ICFs?
3. What are the 5 biggest advantages to building with ICFs>
4. What are the 5, if there are that many, biggest disadvantages of ICFs?
5. How much more will an ICF foundation cost as opposed to a standard 8" concrete wall with 2x fur wall?
6. How much more will it cost to build exterior walls with ICFs as opposed to 2x6 construction?
7. Are there any gimmicks or untrue sales pitches that a contractor of manufacturer might use to get a home owner to build with ICF's?
8. What is the best brand of block that your money can buy?
9. Which is the worst brand of block?
10. What do you expect for the future of ICFs?
11. If there is any additional information that you would like to add, please do so now.
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dmaceld
Registered Users
Advanced Member
Posts:805
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| 11/30/2008 10:47 AM |
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Posted By dirkhooley on 11/30/2008 4:31 AM
2. What is your background and what are you personal experiences with ICFs? In other words, what credentials do you have and why does your opinion matter in the world of ICFs?
3. What are the 5 biggest advantages to building with ICFs>
4. What are the 5, if there are that many, biggest disadvantages of ICFs?
5. How much more will an ICF foundation cost as opposed to a standard 8" concrete wall with 2x fur wall?
6. How much more will it cost to build exterior walls with ICFs as opposed to 2x6 construction?
7. Are there any gimmicks or untrue sales pitches that a contractor of manufacturer might use to get a home owner to build with ICF's?
8. What is the best brand of block that your money can buy?
9. Which is the worst brand of block?
10. What do you expect for the future of ICFs?
May I respectfully suggest you do more searches on this forum? Most of these questions have been discussed quite a few times over the past few years. You will find limited consensus on some, such as cost of construction, and widely varying opinions about other questions such as best or worst block. You will find both DIYers and full time professionals. Experiences among both groups vary widely.
What I would suggest you do is search for as many of the answers as you can find in the archives, summarize those answers, and then post your summary and ask for additional comments. If the members of this forum see your efforts at distilling the vast amount of info already here they will be much more inclined to share additional thoughts or knowledge you haven't found.
I know it won't be easy. It'll take a lot of hours but I assure you you will have a much better research paper for it. You would also be adding a very useful resource to this forum as well, which will be greatly welcomed.
Good luck.
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Building house - what a way to spend retirement! It's done! We're living in it! |
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dirkhooley
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:6
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| 11/30/2008 4:34 PM |
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dmaceld,
Thank you for your respectful suggestion. Maybe i misrepresented myself in the last post. This is not the only research I am doing. And while I can dig as deep as i want into this forum and pull out all of the information I can find, from the Universities perspective, a forum is not a credible source of academic knowledge. I can however use a forum to interview someone as long as the source is credible, look at questions 1 and 2. As far as my professor is concerned, my paper will look a lot better if i say "I have surveyed an "X" number of ICF professionals and they have stated..." rather than "I read somewhere in a forum that ICF blocks are like cars, it depends on who is driving them. Then someone quickly responded saying that the cars analogy was false, not all blocks are made the same." Thank you again for your suggestion, I just hope you haven't deterred anyone from answering this thread. Also having a thread where all of the beginner ICF questions are asked would be a useful resource. A reader could come here and compare 5 or 10 opinions side by side. That would be very useful. |
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robinnc
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:195
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| 11/30/2008 7:23 PM |
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derkh.....I think your professor is behind the times on what a forum can offer. This is not a chit-chat forum where many on other sites are. As you research thru past posts, you can pick out who the professionals are( or maybe one of them can list who they are up front for you)......and what their opinions are on ICF's. You can compile that info and then maybe pm the profesionals to answer your first two questions.
Sounds like an interesting project!
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Chris Johnson
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:467
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| 11/30/2008 7:37 PM |
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Posted By dirkhooley on 11/30/2008 4:31 AM
I'll help you out
1. What is your name?
<----- Look Left
2. What is your background and what are you personal experiences with ICFs? In other words, what credentials do you have and why does your opinion matter in the world of ICFs?
Background is construction since age 17, introduced to ICF's in '96, started installing in '99, went to full time ICF only in '01, have been licensed in the province of Ontario as a Tilesetter as well as registered builder with Tarion (formerly ONHWP), moved to CA in '04, licensed by the state as a C-8 (Concrete) and B (G.C.), have been through many ICF courses and have completed the train the trainer program.
3. What are the 5 biggest advantages to building with ICFs>
A. Ease of use (Once you understand it)
B. Speed of construction
C. Elimination of certain steps in construction
D. Able to build and pour year round in all weather conditions
E. Theft...no one steals your ICF blocks...they don't know what they are or what to do with them
F. The most fun job in construction
G. This list could go on and on...
4. What are the 5, if there are that many, biggest disadvantages of ICFs?
A. The general public's perception of price
B. Getting other professionals to listen and understand the product
C. Getting other subs to realize it is not difficult to work with the product in conjunction with their products
D.
E.
5. How much more will an ICF foundation cost as opposed to a standard 8" concrete wall with 2x fur wall?
This answer will vary by region and will depend on installer experience, product acceptance, etc. I am in California
Hands down I can beat both PIP and CMU all day long for a foundation application, for a retaining wall only depending on different factors, some I win, some I lose
6. How much more will it cost to build exterior walls with ICFs as opposed to 2x6 construction?
Again a regional question...
In California I can beat 2x6 frame day in and day out if you take into consideration all the work required for shearwalls and holddowns, essentially our earthquake code.
7. Are there any gimmicks or untrue sales pitches that a contractor of manufacturer might use to get a home owner to build with ICF's?
A. It's a DIY product
B. It's an R-50 wall
8. What is the best brand of block that your money can buy?
Due to the nature of this forum and what I do for a living I cannot answer this question
9. Which is the worst brand of block?
Due to the nature of this forum and what I do for a living I cannot answer this question
10. What do you expect for the future of ICFs?
Mass acceptance by everyone and the 'standard' building method (I can wish you know)
11. If there is any additional information that you would like to add, please do so now.
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Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Veteran Member
Posts:1408
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Jelly
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:496
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| 12/01/2008 8:22 AM |
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| JC, you'll notice he listed the R-50 thing as a "gimmick or untrue sales pitch" |
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renangle
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:170
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| 12/01/2008 8:39 AM |
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PanelCrafters,
As you well know have opened the R-50 door before and created a rashed of debate on the subject (which I will no longer bring up nor promote), however I believe that you may have misinterpreted Chris Johnson's response to question #7 B. I believe that what he ment by the "Its an R 50 wall" was that it is an untrue gimmick of the ICF industry. I even researched about 100 of Chris' posts and found that he has not mentioned R 50 nor gotten into any of the debates on the subject.
I have learned my lesson and will not mention or promote R 50 again. I simply believe that you may have misinterpreted Chris' post and I want to avoid having 15 more posts on the subject.
Thanks
renangle
renangle
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Cattail Bill
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:259
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| 12/01/2008 10:45 AM |
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Dirk I will also answer your questions.
1 Bill Grove
2 I have been in the ICF buisness for 8 years, Starting from the manufacturing, and marketing side. Having been so discouraged by the poor training from most manufacturers I spent the time learning from people who had been in the buisness for many years. From that I adapted methodology from the bidding process to the finished product based on methodology we have used in the manufacturing for the last 30 years. With an emphasis on efficience of construction methods.
3 I agree with Chris on all of the remaining points, almost all of the ICF product on the market today has its good points and its bad points however each installer learns how to adapt for the things that need to be adapted and once they have a method do very well with the product they choose to use.
4 On the cost front this I also agree with Chris on, from the onset of the ICF industry the adittude seemed to be we have a Cadillac and we can charge more for it, the installers where very inefficeint at the process so they charged more labor, unfortunatly as in any industry there will always be those who choose to not improve and become more efficeint. We have not been out bid on an ICF now for the last five years, this is all due to adapting the manufacturing attitude of effceince and constant improvement of our process's.
5 There is probably one other question that you should add to your list and that is, what does your competition use to try and foil your efforts. One of the comments made in this post is the most common and that is to bad mouth the product or the opinions of those who are trying to give folks the answers they need to move forward with their project, this seems to be the competions only tool to market there sip panels the rest of the products tipups ect;market there product for what it is,and not by cutting down another product, and I for one would not by a chevy even though they are the best vehicle for me if the sales person cutdown the Ford to sell me the Chevy, I want to know what the good points of your product are not what falts the other guys product has.
6 I think that for the most part the answers you have from Chris will mirror with most other post from experianced ICF installers! |
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Manfred
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:202
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| 12/01/2008 10:49 AM |
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1. What is your name?
Manfred Knobel
2. What is your background and what are you personal experiences with ICFs? In other words, what credentials do you have and why does your opinion matter in the world of ICFs?
medical background, chemistry, century building restoration in Canada 1987-1998, WHMIS lecturer 1989 - 1991, moved to US in 1998, NC GC license since 2004, in ICF since 2001, international project managment since 2006.
3. What are the 5 biggest advantages to building with ICFs>
energy efficiency
disaster resistant - solid wall construction
low sound transmission through the wall
better air quality due to less air infiltration vs. conventional building practice
eco-friendly, green approach, LEED points
4. What are the 5, if there are that many, biggest disadvantages of ICFs?
initial building cost is higher
people tend to compare apples to oranges (cost benefit of stick frame vs. ICF)
people don't appreciate life cycle of building
misunderstanding of thermal mass & thermo-regulation
carpenters like wood over foam 300:1 in my area
5. How much more will an ICF foundation cost as opposed to a standard 8" concrete wall with 2x fur wall?
in NC 5% - 10% depending on location within the state
6. How much more will it cost to build exterior walls with ICFs as opposed to 2x6 construction?
in NC 4% - 8% depending on location within the state
7. Are there any gimmicks or untrue sales pitches that a contractor of manufacturer might use to get a home
owner to build with ICF's?
unreasonable energy savings
it is so easy a child can do it
8. What is the best brand of block that your money can buy?
that depends from which point of view you are looking at it. Generally all ICF's perform the same way once installed properly. Some are cheaper than others, some are more advanced than others.
9. Which is the worst brand of block?
same as above
10. What do you expect for the future of ICFs?
expect to go mainstream (it will be a long road)
11. If there is any additional information that you would like to add, please do so now.
People tend to think by changing from stick-build to ICF and incorporate all other conventional building practices and materials that they will safe 50% - 80%. ICF is only part of the envelope equation. People wanting ICF educate themselves more about the cost benefit, after all - it has to make sense to spend more money.
Hope this helps, good luck with your project. We all would like to know how your research paper turns out.
Manfred Knobel
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Manfred Knobel
Moss Pointe Builders, Inc. |
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Veteran Member
Posts:1408
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| 12/01/2008 11:38 AM |
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Posted By Jelly on 12/01/2008 8:22 AM
JC, you'll notice he listed the R-50 thing as a "gimmick or untrue sales pitch"
Sorry, my bad. I was multitasking and didn't read the post completely.
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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Chris Johnson
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:467
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| 12/01/2008 2:31 PM |
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Posted By PanelCrafters on 12/01/2008 11:38 AM
[u]Posted By Jelly on 12/01/2008 8:22 AM[/u]
JC, you'll notice he listed the R-50 thing as a "gimmick or untrue sales pitch"[/quote]
Sorry, my bad. I was multitasking and didn't read the post completely. That's Okay, I'll still have beer with you...but your buying |
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Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
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Paul Stevens
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:184
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| 12/01/2008 7:21 PM |
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Chris, will that beer be at the Luxor or at New York, New York at the WOC? and what day will that be, and can I come too!!!!
What I am getting at. besides having a beer, which I would be more than happy to do with anyone at any time, is who's going, who wants to meet for a drink, when and where and should we start another thread to discuss???
Paul Stevens |
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Chris Johnson
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:467
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| 12/01/2008 8:21 PM |
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Let's try the Venetian this time...after dinner at the Luxor buffet that is.
I'm away at the 'Girls' for the next couple weeks, but start the WOC topic...I'll join in soon
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Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
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