ICFconstruction
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| 12/30/2008 10:17 AM |
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There is this new product that I think is great. It is InSoFast, has about R-8 , has no thermal-bridging like a 2x4 wall and will not mold like a 2x4 wall. Easy to install and has electrical chases built in.
InSoFast is like a single side of an ICF, with furring strips. Just glue to the foundation and screw on drywall. |
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Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net |
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MarkosWoodWorking
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| 12/30/2008 1:57 PM |
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Now, I don't know how the construction world (both SIP and ICF manufacturers) feels about this, but if you're looking for a similar product...why not just line the basment with SIPs? Get a good 4 inch polyurethane SIP (or polystyrene, if you don't feel a need for R20 below ground level). They're quick, structural, and there's no need to hit a stud for hanging drywall...snap right together, so they hold themselves up, though I'd imagine you could screw through into the ICF furring strips, if you'd like to.
Get it ordered with window and electrical cutouts, pressure treated plywood on one or both sides, if you feel the need, and you have a finished product that is virtually the same. Of course, the SIPs might cost more, depending on what sort of R-value you're looking for. |
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Matthew Sokalski
Markos WoodWorking,
Akasu Contracting and Consulting (Attr.) |
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ICFconstruction
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| 12/30/2008 5:15 PM |
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SIPs would cost many times the price, harder to install and you would still have wood to mold with SIPs. InSoFast is inexpensive less than $2sf, glue and stick. The panels have channels to drain water down if there is a problem, and they can't mold.
With ICFs I tell drywallers to let their sheets run wild, that is not end on a stud/furring strip or tie. It makes drywalling a lot easier. With InSoFast the ties are farther apart but you could glue the end if it does not end on a tie. But either way the ties on these are straighter than a wood stud. |
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Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net |
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MarkosWoodWorking
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| 12/30/2008 11:48 PM |
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Insofast is a polystyrene product, is it not? Polystyrene, being a somewhat porous surface (even if it is closed cell), can most certainly harbor mold.
I'm assuming you'd use a styrofoam friendly construction adhesive for this stuff? Not terribly costly, but it still has to be factored in.
Again, with the SIPs, it's a simple matter to either simple space the panels, say 3/4" away from the wall either by using a furring strip (perhaps necessary only every 4'?), or if you're not concerned with actually attaching the SIPs to the existing walls, you could simply stand them all up and space them as you go.
Again, certainly more expensive to use SIPs, but you also get more insulating value. I'm certainly not saying SIPs are the only the way, and in fact I believe these Insofast panels are a very good idea. SIPs may be a good alternative, however...especially if you happen to be going with a SIP structure already, and can get a better deal on the larger order? |
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Matthew Sokalski
Markos WoodWorking,
Akasu Contracting and Consulting (Attr.) |
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ICFconstruction
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| 12/31/2008 10:10 AM |
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Mold requires organics such as wood to grow, EPS can not support mold growth.
PL300 adhesive is $2 a tube, however if I would think you could use something like PL200 and apply it only to the plastic attachment strips.
To use SIPs and furring strips adds even more wood to what is usually a foundation. If you wanted more insulation it would be easy, cheaper and better to install two layers of InSoFast.
Wood should not be used in exterior walls. Wood is for furniture and trim. |
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Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net |
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MarkosWoodWorking
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| 12/31/2008 11:11 AM |
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EPS does not support mold growth, but it can still most certainly harbour it. Especially in the case of condensation and/or weeping, where organic matter becomes trapped on the surface of the EPS, which stays damp (especially when the water is in between EPS and concrete, where there is very little air movement) and provides quite a nice little environment for mold to grow in. Nice proof of this are the EPS trays, often used for starting vegetable seedlings in nurseries, where they are placed on racks made up of cinder blocks to facilitate air flow underneath. The underside of the tray can become slightly, to (in some rare instances) extremely moldy. This in light of the fact that it has had extremely limited contact with organic substances, such as dirt, and is usually at most, almost unnoticeably damp to the touch.
EPS has been used as both insulation and indeed, even sheathing (both interior and exterior) extensively in homes in central and northern Alberta since the early 1960's. I've ripped several walls apart where the EPS should never have even been able to contact wood (at least in the moldy areas), and find a significant amount of mold growth on the panel.
As far as using wood for exterior walls, I respectfully disagree. I currently live in an Eaton mail-order home that was constructed in 1899 at the factory, shipped in sections on the CPR, and built piecemeal in 1900 about 3 miles away from where it currently sits. The outside is shiplap, covered with 2'x3' panels of faux brick fiberglass shingle matting. Despite over 100 years, the house is warm, relatively tight, and so far as I've been able to determine, has no rot (dry or otherwise) or even mold to speak of. If you take care of it, it will last plenty long. |
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Matthew Sokalski
Markos WoodWorking,
Akasu Contracting and Consulting (Attr.) |
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ICFconstruction
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| 12/31/2008 11:39 AM |
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As is the case with any surface if organics (food), moisture and air are added, mold can grow on it. But it is far far less likely than a surface that is made of mold food, like SIPS.
As far as wood framing, I will post on the SIP page and get people spun up. But today's average wood framed house will not last anywhere near as long as yours. |
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Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net |
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ICFconstruction
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| 12/31/2008 9:21 PM |
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| I posted "wood is no good" on the general residential page. |
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Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net |
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Manfred
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| 01/01/2009 6:58 PM |
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| Another way to deal with a basement as you describe, icfconstruction, is to just glue EPS panels to the concrete and CMU wall. Embedd your chases as needed, then attach drywall via either plaster or glue. A chemical attachment is just as good as a mechanical (screws) attachment. Just a thought to add to your thread. |
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Manfred Knobel
Moss Pointe Builders, Inc. |
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ICFconstruction
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| 01/01/2009 7:21 PM |
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| That would work, although InSoFast is easier and higher density insulation than your normal sheets of EPS. When you say attach drywall with plaster, do you mean back-butter drywall with taping compound and stick it to the wall? I ask because that is what they do with Composite ICFs in the SW. |
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Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net |
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Manfred
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| 01/01/2009 8:36 PM |
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| Yup, back-butter, that's how they do it in Europe all day long. |
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Manfred Knobel
Moss Pointe Builders, Inc. |
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ICFconstruction
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| 01/01/2009 8:39 PM |
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| I think the inspectors around here would freak. |
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Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net |
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smartwall
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| 01/02/2009 9:07 AM |
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| How would you get an 8' sip panel thru an average cellar door and down the stairs |
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ICFconstruction
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| 01/02/2009 11:14 AM |
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Well there is that.....Cut it into 4' x 2' pieces?
Time is money and a product like InSoFast was long overdue. |
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Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net |
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SmokeHavel
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| 04/01/2009 6:30 PM |
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Do you know if InSoFast offers any type of warranty? I can't find mention of any on their site.
Thanks.
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ICFconstruction
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| 04/01/2009 6:49 PM |
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| I don't know what they would warrant? But they are nice people and would gladly answer any questions, give them a call. |
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Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net |
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richntiff
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| 04/02/2009 12:31 PM |
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| I got a sample of Insofast a couple weeks ago, along with a quote. HOLY COW IS IT EXSPENSIVE!!!! It seems like a very nice product, very much ICF derived, but the cost was an absolute killer. |
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ICFconstruction
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| 04/02/2009 3:58 PM |
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| How much was it? I can furnish an install it for $2.50sf, very reasonable I thought. |
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Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net |
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SmokeHavel
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| 04/02/2009 6:01 PM |
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I asked for and received a quote from them, 176L.F. of wall at 8ft high...... $2367 and shipped to kansas $175. I didn't think it was so bad for the type of product. But I would have to add the adhesive, drywall, screws, mud, tape, paint, and such on top of that!
Still ok I think.
George
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ICFconstruction
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| 04/02/2009 7:49 PM |
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| Smoke, That is $1.68sf that is not bad. I asked a local GC/framer for a sf price for an 2x4 framed wall with fiberglass insulation and vapor barrier and he said $3.50 - $4sf. And with that you still have wood to rot or mold, less r-value and less living space. |
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Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net |
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