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leonhuang
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Posts:20
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| 03/29/2009 3:04 PM |
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i just checked the OSB price here:
https://www.osbmarket.com/default.aspx
seems the price of OSB is much much cheaper than SIP panel, i read someone post the lowest price as $4 per square feet... which is almost $40 per square meter. But the material cost is around $18/meter^2
So does SIP panel supplier make a lot of money? Who has any idea of this? As far as I know it's not complicated at all to compress OSB with EPS foam to make SIP panels...
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cmkavala
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Veteran Member
Posts:1415
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| 03/29/2009 3:44 PM |
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Posted By leonhuang on 03/29/2009 3:04 PM
i just checked the OSB price here:
So does SIP panel supplier make a lot of money? Who has any idea of this? As far as I know it's not complicated at all to compress OSB with EPS foam to make SIP panels...
leonhuang;
I am not a manufacturer, but I am suprised at the mis-conception from people that SIP companies are making a tremendous killing for their product.
Its not just the bare material cost involved there are also costs for equipment, manufacturing plant, employees, insurance, engineering costs, delivery, cost of testing,sales/administration, legal issues, collections,
Not sure how much per sq. meter all that is but I am sure it is staggering
I am sure I am just scratching the surface.
God bless anyone that has the guts to be in business
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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Green1
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Posts:21
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| 04/03/2009 4:31 PM |
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When you look at the cost Of Steel SIPS,They seem high,But when you build a complete structure .The overall cost of a completed house equals out to the same as a normal constructed house. And its competed much sooner. and uses much less energy.
Think Green-Save Green
Ralph Locke, Deland,Fl
Lockeconst@aol.com |
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hjb4971
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Posts:4
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| 04/15/2009 10:40 PM |
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Materials are only part of the story. How they are put together makes a huge difference.
The best SIPS are made by the big brand name manufacturers who build one-piece wall and roof units of 24-30 feet in length. Bigger units reduce seams, reducing instal time, and seams to seal. 8'x28's are now the standard for the best manufacturers. NEVER accept SIPS from manufacturers who can't do these large JUMBO panels. Imagine how much quicker and stroner it will be if an entire wall of your house can go up in one or two pieces! Imagine how much less chance there is for leaks if your roof is made from 1/4 to 1/8 as many panels.
Next the big manufacturers will pre-cut all angles, door openings, window openings etc. at their factories with computer driven saws. These units alone cost $1 million to purchase. Add that to the other equipment in their factories, and you see why they have some overhead to cover as part of their costs. That said, some are much more competitive than others so shop around.
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cmkavala
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Posts:1415
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| 04/16/2009 10:55 AM |
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Posted By hjb4971 on 04/15/2009 10:40 PM
NEVER accept SIPS from manufacturers who can't do these large JUMBO panels.
It can be argued that lighter panels not requiring a crane are more cost effective.
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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Green1
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Posts:21
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| 04/16/2009 2:24 PM |
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Chris,
You know as well as I do the lighter panels are just as strong ,Quicker to install.
And more cost & time effective with out the crane rental headache involved in a
project,
Unless its over 3 stories,( another story in itself).
Think green- Save green
Ralph locke, Deland,Fl
Lockeconst@aol.com |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
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Posts:1415
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| 04/16/2009 7:24 PM |
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Ralph;
we are currently doing a 3 story, 29 ft. walls and no crane
with 3 men |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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leonhuang
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Posts:20
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| 04/17/2009 5:36 PM |
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i don't think we should pay for the manufacturers' equipment. They should make money from volume, not to raise price.
Actually i can outsource SIP panels for less than US$10 per square meter, which is about $1 per square foot. $ times less than the lowest price. :)
and the size is not a problem, 8'X28'. they reason why they prefer smaller panel is it's easy to ship. actually, factory make bigger pannels and cut to smaller one, the machine itself is big enough.
leon
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trigem1
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Posts:66
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| 04/18/2009 12:53 PM |
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I’ve had several people tell me what a rip-off SIP panels were. After all, it’s just OSB, polystyrene foam and glue. In fact, they continued, they were thinking of making their own panels. I replied, sure, go ahead. First of all, you’ll need a large building to store all the sheets of polystyrene, sheets of OSB and pails of glue, and enough room for the press and assembly area. Oh yeah, you need a press to complete the lamination process between the polystyrene and OSB. Plan on a couple of months to make all your panels. You’ll also need to make or purchase your own hot wire setup and templates to cut the wire chases in the panels. Somewhere along the line you’ll also need to have the local Building Department OK your panels. To do this, you will need to have your panels tested and government certified. We all know how easy it is to work with the government. Plan on several years for this. Once you have that behind you, figure out how you’re going to put all your panels together, cut out windows, fabricate headers, and insulated splines. Remember, you won’t have any factory assistance or anyone to ask questions of, or any warranty, so don’t make any assembly mistakes. Now that I think about it, maybe you could make your own OSB. I mean, after all, it’s just wood chips and glue. How hard could it be? And drywall. It’s just gypsum and paper. And lumber! You’ve got your big assembly building, all you need is a sawmill! Hmmmm, I wonder how hard it would be to make your own nails, windows, doors, carpet, tile, flooring…….
Steve
GrandCountySIPs.com
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leonhuang
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Posts:20
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| 04/18/2009 9:52 PM |
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it is simple technology, it is low cost product. Customer should not pay for those manufacturers'one time cost, such as equipment, land/building and goverment certificate fee, except for only one case, that the SIP panels are not sold in volume on market, manufatures have to raise price to cover those one-time cost.
If you look at matured industrila products, which are mass produced, the price is not far away from the raw material cost. OSB panel is one example.
In fact, SIP panel is a so old technology that has been coverd by the "green" color in today's market, to hide the truth that it has not been widely accepted.
Over-priced panel is one evidence...
Let me make it clear one more time, $1 per square feet still has enough profit if the factory can sell enough panels, just as some of you guys mentioned, BIG manufacturers, haha... |
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wes
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Advanced Member
Posts:637
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| 04/18/2009 11:05 PM |
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Leon,
I am not in the business of making SIPS. I just use them. One point that you seem to persist in pursuing is that the value of the product should be set by the cost of the product if the plant were operating at maximum volume production. With no consideration of the value of quality, safety, appearance, working conditions, or the intrinsic value of the finished product. SIPS are not, and should not be, a commodity product. The goal of the mfg. should not be to make the product at the absolute cheapest price, but to build the absolute best product possible.
SIPS manufacturers are not Chinese factories building little plastic toys for sale at Walmart that have a life expectancy of 48 hours. Yugos and Cadillacs serve the same purpose, do we demand that they sell for the same price?
I really don't like people who think the bottom line is the be all and end all of everything.
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Wes Shelby
Design Systems Group
Murray KY
wandr@ainweb.net |
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leonhuang
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:20
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| 04/19/2009 5:26 AM |
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Cars are, SIPs are not. Because SIPs are so simple. If you compare SIP panels with cars, i have no words. :)
Chinese factories today not only make plastic toys, but almost all products, including cars, TV, airplane, trains, satellites, nuclear power station, missles, etc. Open your eyes please... Most of the stuff we use today is made there.
Ohh, maybe cars are not yet, but just like it is started here and then moved to Japan, Korea, you will soon see cars on our market made there too. We all know tax payers can no longer afford those car makers:) sorry, I am away too far off the topic.
SIP panels are Cadillac in buidling materials? Are you kidding?
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Veteran Member
Posts:1415
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| 04/19/2009 5:59 AM |
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| We all know where the chinese drywall got us! |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips dot com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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jimmy48
New Member
Posts:0
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| 04/19/2009 9:06 AM |
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| Since you have the low cost production of sips figured out leon perhaps you should open your own plant and take the north american industry by storm. Or maybe move to china to buy all your cheap products since you dont seem to want to support the country you live in! |
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leonhuang
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Posts:20
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| 04/19/2009 11:06 AM |
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it has nothing to do with supporting the country or not, hasn't it? if you think buying over-priced SIP products is supporting the country, then go ahead. but I think it's not supporting the country, but those money sucking machines...i.e business owners.
All i want to say is the SIPs are over priced and over valued. It is good product, it should be on good price to be used by more people. |
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trigem1
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Posts:66
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| 04/19/2009 12:15 PM |
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Leonhuang,
It always annoys me when someone who has no experience, expertise or knowledge in an area starts expounding on how it should be done. I worked for John Deere for over 30 years, so I feel that I can speak with some authority on how a manufacturing facility financially operates. The underlying theme is competition and market share. You produce the highest quality product at the lowest price you can and still make a profit. If you charge too much, you lose customers and go out of business. If you charge to little, you can’t pay your bills, and go out of business. Ok, lets say you would like to start up your SIP manufacturing plant. First, you’ll need some land, say an acre. You’ll need enough room for a raw material storage building, office building, manufacturing building, parking lot, finished product storage area, receiving area, shipping area. Now that you have the land and buildings, you will have labor costs, raw material costs, permits, machine costs, material handling costs (conveyors, forklifts, trucks), insurance, advertising, taxes, heat and lights, computers, research and development, attorneys, testing and certification costs. Of course, remember to add in maintenance costs for buildings, trucks, office machinery, computers, telephones, desks chairs, CAD systems. Any one of these systems breaks down, you’re dead in the water. Even a simple hydraulic press needs to have the oil changed, guides refinished, hoses replaced. pressure pump repaired or replaced, seal leaks repaired and needs to be overhauled every few years until it’s reached it’s life expectancy, and then needs to be replaced. Ok, say your initial investment is somewhere around $30,000,000. And, just like for most people, you take out a loan to pay for it. With interest. That would make your monthly payment roughly $202,500. That doesn’t include wages, labor costs, legal fees, electricity, transportation fuel costs, heat and cooling costs, insurance and advertising. I know, you’re saying you already paid that in the $30.000.000. You’re right, but those were start up costs, and these are ongoing, monthly costs. Now, let’s say you have 30 people working at your plant, with an average pay of $30 an hour. That includes vacation plan, paid holidays, health plan and workman’s comp. That brings your monthly payroll to $144,000, not including any overtime. So, with everything included, your monthly expenditures would be pretty close to a half a million dollars a month. For a simple SIP panel. So, you tell me, how many panels, at what price, will you have to sell a month to not only pay the bills, but to make a reasonable return on your investment (read profit). I hope this clears up some of the misconceptions of running a manufacturing plant, and why the pricing is what it is.
Steve
GrandCountySIPs.com |
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leonhuang
Registered Users
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Posts:20
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| 04/19/2009 3:19 PM |
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My answer to you is that all high cost/lower profit manufacturers should go to Africa or Asia, where lands, labor, buildings are all cost less. Obviously SIP should be one of them, since it merely has no technology in it.
Ohh, maybe we have seen that already, things like toys, consumer electronics, textile industry, etc. You name it.
I'd rather buy lower price SIP panels made somewhere in the world to save my own money, instead of paying over-price to support somebody, but definitly not the country.
I don't think the technology/engineering difference will be that much, particularly in SIP panel making.
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trigem1
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Posts:66
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| 04/19/2009 8:20 PM |
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Leon,
Are you serious? What qualifies you to even have a valid opinion on the technological and financial aspects of the manufacture of SIP panels? To simply state that SIP’s are too expensive without proof, factual backup, extensive experience in the field or research is worthless. The price point is simply one in which is not so low as to lose money, but high enough to show a reasonable profit and be competitive. And no technology in it? There’s no technology in expanded or extruded polystyrene? There’s no technology in OSB? There’s no technology in the glue that laminates the OSB to the EPS? There’s no technology in the locking 15 ton hydraulic press? There’s no technology in the CNC machines that cut the panels to within a 1/16th of an inch? Quick, tell me the ingredients of polystyrene. How is it made? Are you, or have you ever been involved with the manufacturing of SIP panels? Do you have any first hand knowledge in the manufacturing of SIP panels? Please explain the manufacturing process of OSB off the top of your head. Just because these are common materials to us, does not make them easy or simple to manufacture. Face it, if India or Africa or any other nation could manufacture SIP panels, ship them here, and make money at it, they would. What’s the size of a shipping container? What sized panels can you put into the container? How many of what sizes of panels can you fit into the container? I’ve had calls from the Ukraine asking what it would cost to have US made panels shipped to them. They told me that there was no one there that had the technological expertise to manufacture them. The shipping charges proved to be too expensive to make the venture worthwhile. If you want to build your house with cheap, uncertified, untested panels with no warranty, have at it. Make your own.
Having industries move over seas is not always a good solution. About 30 or 40 years ago, Japan started manufacturing cheap electronic devices and imported them to the United States, as you pointed out. They were cheap and for the most part, junk. As time went by, they became much more proficient at producing a quality product, while selling these products at a substantially lower price than a comparable product could be made here. The fact of the matter was that Japanese manufactures lost millions of dollars. They continued to lose money until they put all of the American manufactures out of business. Now that they had a successful monopoly, the Japanese manufacturers raised their prices to and above the level they were available before the Japanese entered the market. Now, the prices were the same as they were, or more, the Japanese were making millions, and thousands of Americans were looking for work. Bottom line? Prices are now the same or more, and thousands of Americans were looking for work.
Steve
GrandCountySIPs.com |
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ergodesk
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:175
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| 04/19/2009 9:12 PM |
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| oHere goes progress sideways but the OSB is gone http://idealabs.berkeley.edu/betterblocks |
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Build Smarter with Structural Insulated Air
http://StyroHomeNews.blogspot.com |
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leonhuang
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:20
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| 04/19/2009 9:15 PM |
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Please don't threaten me by big words. Tell you the truth, i have just finished research on building offshore SIP factory, and from this research i got the price/cost, which should be about $1 per square feet.
EPS are made by third party provider, OSB board is made my supplier, glue is made by supplier. SIP manufacturers only need to compress and cut, that's all the work, simply speaking. of course shipping, strorage, need not to say.
so, no technology in OSB, no technology in EPS, at least for SIP makers. the only big machine they need is the compressor, yes, making 8'X28' panel is not a problem at all. This old technology is earlier than even 60s or 70s.
Our Americans will lead the world by new technologies and innovations, IT, bio tech, new energy, not such simple stuff. These labor-cost work should be done elsewhere, because we can not afford them to be done here. That's the only reason why the SIP panles are so over priced. we need to use the cheap land, cheap labor elsewhere and lower the price, and let our general public enjoy it. |
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