a0128958 Registered Users
 Basic Member
 Posts:470
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| 07/03/2009 2:59 PM |
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It's hot in Dallas right now, with days regularly at 100°+ (F). It's the equivalent of a hard core winter for you Northern guys, with respect to GSHP operation - it's just operating in reverse!
I have the ability to analyze EER - here it is for the month of June for my water-to-air 5 ton unit (WaterFurnace Envision 5 ton 2 stage variable speed) connected to a closed vertical loop - see histogram chart at bottom.
Avg Entering Water Temp for June was 78°. Spec looks to be about 21 EER at this EWT. Actual average EER from the histogram chart below is at 22. Close enough considering accuracy of measurement instruments.
I'm measuring EER exactly the way WF does, in order to make this an apples-to-apples comparison. Yes, my EER does include water pumping power (2 pumps at 385 W each).
This is a pretty good example of GSHP equipment working in weather conditions where performance is needed.
While the WF equipment is certainly doing its job, I believe other high quality equipment (i.e. ClimateMaster, FHP, etc.) is equally capable. What's fundamental here is that my water loop is doing its job - in my case putting 650+ KBTU daily into the ground with an EWT rise of about 5° per month (it will peak at about 83° in another few weeks).
See http://welserver.com/WEL0043/ for good illustration of how GSHP equipment should be running in very hot weather.
Best regards,
Bill |

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Real time energy monitoring system at: http://welserver.com/WEL0043/ |
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engineer Registered Users
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1157
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| 07/05/2009 8:14 AM |
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| It is ALL about reasonable EWT, and yours certainly is. |
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Without data, you only have an opinion. |
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a0128958 Registered Users
 Basic Member
 Posts:470
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| 07/05/2009 9:22 AM |
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I've learned this year a key principle with respect to how difficult it is for the earth to accept/provide heat from/to the closed water loop: the earth needs time, both daily and monthly, to 'recover' when forcing the earth to accept high rejection/acceptance rates of heat.
For example, at the moment, I'm dumping, on average, about tw-thirds of a million BTUs into the earth each day (671 KBTU/day). During a good portion of the day, my heat transfer rate is at 80 KBTU/hr. This is a rate of heat transfer too much for the earth to absorb quickly. So interestingly, my EWT rises almost 10° (F) during the course of each 24 hour day. While I had an average EWT of 78° last month (June), the first chart below shows how dynamic EWT is on an hourly basis during each day (black and blue lines are EWT; red line is rate of heat transfer in KBTU/hr X 10).
It's not cost effective to put in a vertical closed loop that can handle the peak heat transfer demand. Many, particularly Joe, have advocated this for some time here. What I've learned, though, is there's a minimum size, such that there can be 'recovery' time each day for the EWT to return to a more steady state temperature.
It's clear - it takes the earth a good amount of time to move the heat - for my environment, it can't handle a 'steady diet' at 80KBTU/hr. Thus, there has to be night recovery time to be ready for the next day.
This same phenomena occurs longer term. The second chart shows the gradual EWT 'march' of increasing temperature for the past 16 weeks. Looking at the last 6 weeks (again black and blue lines are EWT), you see 3 'dips' in daily average EWT temperature - each corresponding to when we had a couple of cloudy/rainy days.
I'm learning that these occasional moderate temperature days give the earth time to move a good amount more heat away from the vertical loop. Giving EWT an opportunity to drop, on a daily average, a few degrees. This becomes EWT capacity ready for the next batch of hot days.
I have found the dynamics of how the closed water loop interacts with the earth to be a fascinating subject. The comments here are just FYI to pass along some learnings to those of you equally interested.
I don't think these comments are applicable for those with open loops.
Best regards,
Bill |


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Real time energy monitoring system at: http://welserver.com/WEL0043/ |
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jonr Registered Users
 Basic Member
 Posts:335
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| 07/06/2009 9:03 AM |
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Very interesting, thanks for putting up the data.
Have you considered a storage tank, either a small one (for the small spikes) or a large one for the daily variations?
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a0128958 Registered Users
 Basic Member
 Posts:470
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| 07/06/2009 9:51 AM |
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I don't think I'm knowledgable enough to know what to store or how to effectively use storage tanks, for anything other than collecting rain water.
Best regards,
Bill |
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Real time energy monitoring system at: http://welserver.com/WEL0043/ |
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jonr Registered Users
 Basic Member
 Posts:335
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| 07/06/2009 11:42 AM |
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The tank sizing is easy (1 degree F increase of 1 pound of water = 1 btu). Problem is it takes large tanks that are unlikely to pay for themselves (unless you get a good price on nighttime electricity).
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a0128958 Registered Users
 Basic Member
 Posts:470
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| 07/06/2009 1:38 PM |
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Are you serious?
It would be much more cost effective to simply drill another 300' deep well and add it to the existing borefield, versus purchasing very large tanks, that can be pressurized, and doing the excavation, installation, loop line air purging, and follow on maintenance, etc.
Best regards,
Bill |
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Real time energy monitoring system at: http://welserver.com/WEL0043/ |
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geodean Registered Users
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1085

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| 07/07/2009 8:55 AM |
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Bill,
Thanks for the charts. This type of info is very useful.
How hot did your loop get last year?
Answered my own question by looking at the chart.
It will be interesting to see how hot it goes this year.
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Dewayne Dean PalaceGeothermal.com Why settle for 90% when you can have 400% We heat and cool with dirt! visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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a0128958 Registered Users
 Basic Member
 Posts:470
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| 07/07/2009 3:06 PM |
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Thanks Dewayne. I hope your charts on your customers' installations are proving educational to you. I'm sure your customers are getting good performance from you as a contractor - what I'd be using the charts for would be to determine if you're putting in the right amount of pipe or too much pipe, etc., thereby giving you opportunity to affirm / adjust your internal cost expenditures.
My summer is similar to the harsh winter for many contributors here. Right now, dumping up to three-fourths of a million BTUs per day into the ground, for a residential system, is no small feat. I've clearly learned that it's not cost effective to build a loop that can keep up with transfering heat to the earth as much as is presented on design days. But still, the loop has to be big enough to allow for 'recovery' time, both daily (night during summer, day during winter) and occasionally through the season period (i.e., an occasional rainy day right now for me). The earth can't otherwise move heat fast enough to allow run times approaching 24 x 7.
It's easy to appreciate the (expensive) commercially available design s/w packages that allow contractors to get the loop designed right, horizontal or vertical, at optimum construction cost. It's increasingly obvious this is not a DIY exercise.
And here in this Dallas heat, it's hard to see how a horizontal loop would work well without have have a loonnngggg amout of pipe in the ground. Helps me appreciate how much depcreciation/insurance/operating cost there must be a with a deep hole drilling machine - otherwise everyone would simply put in a vertical loop down here.
Another area I'm looking at is long term heating / cooling of the earth. For example, my guess is, looking at the chart below and imagining what it's going to look like when I have 1+ years of data on it, each year I'm going to reject to the earth more heat than I'm going to extract. I'm going to be curioius if this affects my EWT long term.
Hope business has expanded a lot for you now, Dewayne, now that you've got capability to offer, in-house, vertical loops, with your fancy new machine. I'd come ask if I could work for you if I lived in georgeous not-nearly-so-hot Utah!
Best regards,
Bill
http://welserver.com/WEL0043/
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Real time energy monitoring system at: http://welserver.com/WEL0043/ |
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engineer Registered Users
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1157
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| 07/07/2009 4:15 PM |
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There's a McQuay publication that I believe discusses long term temperature "erosion" in large commercial loop fields - something on the order of 1 degree per year.
I don't think it'll be a long term problem for you unless all your neighbors go geo, but I freely admit that's a guess |
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Without data, you only have an opinion. |
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a0128958 Registered Users
 Basic Member
 Posts:470
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| 07/07/2009 4:47 PM |
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Curt, thanks. In a few years I'll be able to present some fact, at least for my specific conditions (borefield of 8 holes, spaced 20' apart).
Best regards,
Bill |
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Real time energy monitoring system at: http://welserver.com/WEL0043/ |
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engineer Registered Users
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1157
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| 07/07/2009 8:23 PM |
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| 8 in a line might have a slightly different response than eight in a circle or square. If the pattern has one or more in a middle area surrounded by other bores on all sides then it may be that the middle one(s) experience a slight decrease in contribution (heat rejection) |
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Without data, you only have an opinion. |
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joe.ami Registered Users
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1419
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| 07/07/2009 8:48 PM |
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Posted By jonr on 07/06/2009 9:03 AM
Have you considered a storage tank, either a small one (for the small spikes) or a large one for the daily variations?
Or a large inland lake or ocean for annual requirements? |
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Just a Mechanic; Geothermal; Savings Underfoot |
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geodean Registered Users
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1085

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| 07/07/2009 9:49 PM |
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Bill,
Are you loops in a straight line or grid pattern? |
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Dewayne Dean PalaceGeothermal.com Why settle for 90% when you can have 400% We heat and cool with dirt! visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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a0128958 Registered Users
 Basic Member
 Posts:470
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| 07/07/2009 11:08 PM |
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Posted By geodean on 07/07/2009 9:49 PM ... Are you loops in a straight line or grid pattern? Dewayne, grid pattern. Two rows, 4 holes each row, each hole at least 20' separate from any other whole.
All holes are sitting in my front yard - see image below.
Best regards,
Bill |

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Real time energy monitoring system at: http://welserver.com/WEL0043/ |
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geodean Registered Users
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1085

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| 07/07/2009 11:12 PM |
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Bill,
It will be interesting to see the long term effect. I am thinking that engineer's 1° per year might be what we will see.
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Dewayne Dean PalaceGeothermal.com Why settle for 90% when you can have 400% We heat and cool with dirt! visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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a0128958 Registered Users
 Basic Member
 Posts:470
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| 07/07/2009 11:24 PM |
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Posted By joe.ami on 07/07/2009 8:48 PM ... Or a large inland lake or ocean for annual requirements? 
Ha! Ha! Ha! Joe, this is your 'deep in the winter time' here right now. Other than once in a while rainy days (just finished one), it's nothing but hotter than what you call a 'design degree' day. Should be back to over 100° (F) tomorrow.
The chart below shows the 'march' to the pushing hard the HVAC equipment down here (Dallas). You can ignore the 115° and 110° days - I had the BBQ running too close to the outside sensor.
It's Christmas time right now for the HVAC professionals. For example, everyone's calling with the $49 (per unit) 'check up' special these days - and that includes a pound of 'freon.' (Never mind weighing a charge in - just get the freon "topped off," find all problems the HO needs fixed (problems or not) to additionally charge for, get that quote out for how urgent the HO needs a new system, and get on to the next customer's home. And have I mentioned that down south here it can be 140° + up in our attics, where the air handler is? Let's see, you go upstairs to get the evap coil splits, and then you go outside to cool off in 100° air to get the condenser DB/WB temps!). Interesting market dynamics down here - highly competitive on the air source side.
Best regards,
Bill |

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Real time energy monitoring system at: http://welserver.com/WEL0043/ |
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a0128958 Registered Users
 Basic Member
 Posts:470
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| 07/07/2009 11:32 PM |
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Posted By geodean on 07/07/2009 11:12 PM ... It will be interesting to see the long term effect. I am thinking that engineer's 1° per year might be what we will see.
Dewayne, yep, this is another experiment to see what the facts are. I've got the data collection going, and the beginning chart created - see below. This chart shows the statistical average EWT for each month. I'm hopeful of getting 2008 data into the chart, and if so, I may be able to make an initial conclusion. If not, at least the chart is ready, and will gradually show the story.
Best regards,
Bill
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Real time energy monitoring system at: http://welserver.com/WEL0043/ |
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joe.ami Registered Users
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1419
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| 07/07/2009 11:55 PM |
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Should be a great proving ground for your new fan coil Bill. Keep us posted, Joe |
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Just a Mechanic; Geothermal; Savings Underfoot |
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joe.ami Registered Users
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1419
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| 07/16/2009 9:25 AM |
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I'm curious if there is an opportunity to try another set-back experiment. You demonstrated that dialing down saved usage in your relatively mild winter, do you think the same (or rather dialing up) would be true for the heavy load of summer? Joe |
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Just a Mechanic; Geothermal; Savings Underfoot |
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