joe.ami
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| 07/09/2009 9:40 AM |
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From a different thread, Curt presented a point of view I think is worth discussing. I want to emphasize that it is not aimed at that threads author. It is aimed at discussing responsibility when things go wrong.....
"I disagree a bit.
If WF won't correctly select and police the quality of the dealer network they might just as well sell the things over the internet to anyone with a valid credit card and let the chips fall where they may."
Engineer goes on to say (paraphprasing) that some shoppers do not have the knowledge (or BS detector) to ferret out geo-charlatans.
My first question in response is "WHY NOT!?" Folks who can find this forum to rant, certainly could find it to do research.
Does the manufacturer have responsibility in this, yeah okay some, but how 'bout the state that licensed your dealer (no one talks of sueing their state), or the manufacturer of the tube that's installed wrong (not enough btu's coming through your HDPE)......Or the inspector who passed the job (you said it was okay). Remember a manufacturer sees a contractor as dozens of sales each year and an end consumer as 1 every 20 years.
As a new inspector years ago, I found myself disgusted with the builders of code minimum houses. I confess that after awhile I began to blame the buyers.
When somebody makes the largest purchase of their lives, if they don't take time to learn the difference in home quality; shame on them.
I am not unsypathetic to folks with geo trouble, or disinterested in the industy rep (that's why I've spent so much time here). I would just like to see ire pointed in the right direction (contractor and licensing body first).
I would also like to see buyers accept their share of the responsibility and do their due diligence.
Joe |
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Bergy
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| 07/09/2009 11:23 AM |
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Joe,
I pretty much agree with what was said.
As far as the manufacturer goes... I'm not sure what training they offer because we started out with GeoComfort selling climate master. Their (GeoComfort) training was very good as was tech service. Geocomfort then began sourcing from WFI and we went along for the ride. Again, training and tech support were good. GeoComfort now manufactures Hydron Module /GeoComfort units and, as expected, their training and tech support are very good. They require all new dealers to attend a three day service and install class and push established dealers to attend refreasher courses now and then. However, all the training in the world can not produce a compentent company if all they want to do is the most basic hack install with out their due dilligence.
Moral of the story?? Check references, check references, check references and then check them again!! Make sure you check the references of those with the OLDEST installs. That will be a good indicator of their commitment to servicing their customers. Check to see if they are IGSHPA certified, or if they belong to any other assoaciations. Remember, the lowest price often comes from the guy not knowing his cost of doing business and will soon be out of it. Our company is often several thousand dollars higher than the newbees yet we get most of the jobs. Some of the jobs we don't get will come our way in the form of repair, redesign or as consultants.
Bergy
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jonr
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| 07/09/2009 12:03 PM |
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>If WF won't correctly select and police the quality of the dealer network they might just as well sell the things over the internet to anyone
Engineer is right. Any installer can get a few installations right and those are the references he/she will give out. So customer references supplied by the installer are close to worthless.
GSHPA certified makes some sense. Personally, I would also ask an installer to answer a few tough questions to reveal lack of knowledge (but not lack of care). But no, a typical customer will not have the knowledge to do even that.
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TechGromit
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| 07/09/2009 12:04 PM |
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I would have to agree with Joe. I researched the hell out of geothermal systems and contractors before paying to get mine replaced. Before I brought my house in 2007, I didn't know crap about geothermal, but since then I think I educated myself pretty well since then. For something that costs at least as much as a car and in some cases as much as an RV you should be asking the hard questions before signing any contract. As well as what hard questions to ask.
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engineer
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| 07/10/2009 7:51 AM |
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I agree that customers SHOULD do their due diligence but some are better able to than others. Technology constantly brings us better but more complicated products and systems, so the process of choosing among alternatives becomes steadily more complicated.
For many mass produced products due diligence is easier - for major appliances we have Consumer Reports' reliability data. For cars we have that plus heavy government safety regs, mpg ratings, crash data, etc.
For geo all we have is ARI ratings, but all of us know that the installation makes all the difference. The ARI numbers are wishful thinking unless the install is dead on.
It occurs to me that buying a geo system (or perhaps any HVAC) is more like hiring a doctor or a lawyer and less about the equipment. The skill and integrity of the provider trumps the equipment. It is much harder to objectively evaluate service providers than hardware.
Case in point. I just spent a week on vacation in New England and along the way visited my aunt in NH. She has a newer house with a perfectly good propane fueled forced HW heating system. She wants / needs AC. She'd heard of geo and asked me about it last year. I steered her away owing to the cost / complexity (no existing ductwork) payback period (she's 75). She's very intelligent, has a PhD in music, but doesn't know a thermal unit from thermal underwear. She uses email, but doesn't spend a lot of time surfing forums, etc. One major issue for her is humidity control to protect wooden musical instruments.
I suggested ductless minisplits. She dutifully got a couple quotes. One offer had considerable fine print about lien laws, etc, offered Mitsubishis, and was higher than the other offer. The other offered Daikin, and the guy was a bit more 'down home', which she liked. I Googled and phone interviewed the Daikin dealer and that confirmed what I had heard elsewhere - Daikin makes good equipment and is serious about the US market to the point where they offer very good tech support of their installers. My phone interview lasted over twenty minutes, with him doing most of the talking. We're in good agreement over the basics of the system and he seemed competent and honorable, so I gave him the nod.
I hope I'm right - I have no financial skin in the game and can't micromanage the project from 1400 miles away.
I tell the story to make two points. 1) Some folks, despite best intentions, can't properly do due diligence without impartial help. 2) Since I can't be there, I focused on the contractor's level of service AND the support he's likely to get from the manufacturer of this fairly new product - ductless multisplit.
The advice to get references is sound but flawed. Customers may or may not know whether they actually received a good system. We see it hear - people with unreasonable expectations, obsessed with minutiae about their systems - nightmare customers. We also hear of folks whose systems are horribly flawed and they have little or no idea why. |
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joe.ami
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| 07/10/2009 8:08 AM |
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Posted By engineer on 07/10/2009 7:51 AM
The advice to get references is sound but flawed. Customers may or may not know whether they actually received a good system. We see it hear - people with unreasonable expectations, obsessed with minutiae about their systems - nightmare customers. We also hear of folks whose systems are horribly flawed and they have little or no idea why.
Many people shop when they are unqualified to seperate the wheat from the chaff. Computers are a great example for me. I don't know what I need so I ask an IT guy I know. He asks what I'd like to do with it, makes a few suggestions and off I go to purchase the appropriate system for me. If I were to go to the big box store and purchase the cheapest one only to find it didn't work, would that be the manufacturer's fault?
Your story about your Aunt further illustrates my point. She felt unqualified to make the decision so whe asked somebody who was.
Again this is no reflection on a particular blogger, but fools and their money are soon parted. If a buyer won't take the appropriate steps to protect their money, don't blame a product manufacturer, blame the buyer. If a contractor does poor work, don't blame the manufacturer, blame the contractor.
I noticed everyone neatly glossed over the licensing issue as well. WF may say they gave a guy a 3 day course, but in MI it's the state that gives me license to contract. Which of the two is more responsible to ensure I conduct myself properly?
J |
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engineer
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| 07/10/2009 8:30 AM |
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Interesting point about licensure.
I dislike yet more government regulation, but I wonder if the geo industry would be better served if there was a geo endorsement for HVAC contractor licenses. That might separate some of the wheat from the chaff.
I hold a bottom-of-the-heap Coast Guard license, so I can legally carry a few passengers for hire on small craft. To tow disabled vessels for pay I needed a separate towing endorsement - 4 hour class and a test. No big deal, but good to know about safe speeds and the danger of long lines under high tension.
PC purchase is similarly complex, but experts abound and consequences of a bad decision for you or I or typical homeowner typically are about one zero shy of life cycle cost of a bad geo system.
I suspect Michigan's primary interest is that you do the job safely, up to code minumums, and without outright fraud.
WF's interests are (or should be) a bit deeper - that the system provides, in addition to meeting code minumums as to safety and efficacy, quiet comfort at the high COPs and EERs they tout.
"Joe replaced my oil burner with a WF (or CM, FHP, whatever) and my heating bills are less than half and we're warm and comfortable, I can hardly hear it run - you oughta get one"
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joe.ami
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| 07/10/2009 9:20 AM |
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Posted By engineer on 07/10/2009 8:30 AM
Interesting point about licensure.
I dislike yet more government regulation, but I wonder if the geo industry would be better served if there was a geo endorsement for HVAC contractor licenses. That might separate some of the wheat from the chaff.
PC purchase is similarly complex, but experts abound and consequences of a bad decision for you or I or typical homeowner typically are about one zero shy of life cycle cost of a bad geo system.
I suspect Michigan's primary interest is that you do the job safely, up to code minumums, and without outright fraud.
Licensure has some catagorization in MI, but the only specific one (stand alone) is boiler installer or repairer. The bigger point is they are the ones that say someone has thousands of hours and years of experience while WF promises 24 hours of training. Is it in there interest to police their dealers, of course never disputed it, just don't know why they are the first ones blamed when things go wrong.
You mention pc being a similar purchase, but if you choose to make it about dollars then go back to the example of a new home I mentioned earlier. Generally when things go wrong in a new home the builder is held accountable more often than the manufacturer of an individual component.
Do you hear "I made Certainteed come out and fix my roof" or "I called the builder and made him fix it."
There already is a geo certification for industry pro's but the buyer would have to do their due diligence to find it.
When people complain here they don't title their thread; "Curt the Engineer caved in my pool with his back hoe," they say Comfort Aire won't fix my problem". I'd just like to see the blame placed on the responsible person.
Call your homeowners insurance and see who they go after, you think water furnace will get the first call or the contractor?
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jonr
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| 07/10/2009 9:24 AM |
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If people in the geo business don't encourage some type of vetting to get rid of the bad installers and systems, then the entire industry gets a bad name and the good installers and manufacturers get less business. The Internet allows bad news to travel fast and wide.
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joe.ami
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| 07/10/2009 9:53 AM |
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Posted By jonr on 07/10/2009 9:24 AM
If people in the geo business don't encourage some type of vetting to get rid of the bad installers and systems, then the entire industry gets a bad name and the good installers and manufacturers get less business. The Internet allows bad news to travel fast and wide.
There are Industry certifications and licensing local jurisdictions. Consumers would have to look for them.
The only place I see these complaints are on forums (like this) where the good guys are.
My real point of educate yourself would be true in any major purchase. I'm not so quick to take responsibility from the purchaser and assign it to manufacturer's or now the industry at large.
Consumers often hire less expensive/cheaper contractors and then are stunned when they don't get premium, experienced service.
If you choose not to do your home work, if you choose to blame a manufacturer or now the industry at large, the unfortunate thing is your system still doesn't work.
Wouoldn't it be better to do your homework?
As Jonr points out, internet allows bad news to travel fast. If you are reading this, you are capable of quality research and determining if potential contractors are of quality. You can also ask the opinion of contributing pros on job recommendations.
(now if we could only get people in the engineer business to police their crack-pots ).
jj
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600rmk
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| 07/10/2009 12:01 PM |
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| The sad reality of the situation is that for every negative post about these systems, it probably takes 4-5 positive posts to restore confidence in people that geo is a great system. Lately it seems the forums are filled with more negative comments than positive. I want to go geo but so far my thoughts about these systems haven't been validated to a point where I know it will be the right system for me. I'm a ways off from building my new home, but you can guarantee that I'm trying to do as much research as possible long before I make a decision. |
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gregj
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| 07/10/2009 2:11 PM |
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I see your point Joe and mostly agree. But it is very difficult sometimes, even after doing all you can, to weed out the chaf.
Your roofing example is a good one in that mostly problems are blamed on the installer but there are exceptions sometimes where the manufacturer does get hammered when they've put out an inferior product. But roofing products seem to be a far more established industry. There are clear installation procedures that work every time. Even though the geo industry has been around a long time it still is at the point where every installation is essentially a custom installation.
The geo manufacturers are still trying to get this industry established and should understand how critical well trained installers are to their success so for that reason alone they need to police their installers. I can tell you that every time I have my VW car serviced at a local dealer I get a survey from VW checking on how good a job their dealer did. Even though I've had some trouble with my car the service department always fixed it correctly and I didn't have to deal with the problem again. As a customer I wasn't happy with the defects but I certainly couldn't complain about the service. I suspect VW puts a lot of heat on dealers who aren't doing well in the service department and that is what geo manufacturers need to do if they want customers to be comfortable buying their products.
Side note about licensing. I always find it bizarre when a certain time period (say 2 years experience) is required for a license. Testing makes sense but some people can learn more in 1 month than others learn in 2 years. As a former inspector wouldn't you have liked to score every installation as part of your inspection and have that score used as part of the criteria for the installer maintaining his license? The drawback is that it can be very difficult to get inspectors with enough qualifications to issue scores. |
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galnar
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| 07/10/2009 2:23 PM |
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Joe.
What are the industry certs that us consumers should be looking for? I already know I want geothermal in my next home, the trick is finding someone I can count on to install it.
Thanks
Matt
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joe.ami
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| 07/10/2009 10:13 PM |
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Posted By gregj on 07/10/2009 2:11 PM
I see your point Joe and mostly agree. But it is very difficult sometimes, even after doing all you can, to weed out the chaf.
Your roofing example is a good one in that mostly problems are blamed on the installer but there are exceptions sometimes where the manufacturer does get hammered when they've put out an inferior product. But roofing products seem to be a far more established industry. There are clear installation procedures that work every time. Even though the geo industry has been around a long time it still is at the point where every installation is essentially a custom installation.
The geo manufacturers are still trying to get this industry established.....
Respectfully Greg,
Why would you expect it's easier for a manufacturer to sort the wheat from the chaff than it is an end consumer. Manufacturers only hear a fraction of the complaints and are trying to sell product to a contractor that buys several units each year.
I think roofing is relatively custom with each job.
Geo manufacturers are very established but trying to sell more. I think one of the real challenges for geo pros (and I've said this before) is a change in clientelle. 20 years ago geo was purchased mainly by engineers and gadget guys who were qualified to make the decision to buy. Now it's grandmas and newlyweds due to high fuel costs and tax credits.
Believe me that individually and collectively we are trying to meet the new demand for education, but the buyer must ultimately be responsible to do an appropriate amount of research.
Curiously I think this same change in clients is also leading to the demise of perfectly suitable open loop systems as they are disinterested in extra maintenence.
I'll ask all here out of curiosity a few questions that inspired my thread.....
Regarding manufacturer responsibility, where is the line;
If a contractor installs the wrong duct work size, who's fault is it?
If a contractor installs the wrong loop size who's fault is it?
If a contractor installs the wrong heat pump size who's fault is it?
If a contractor leaves a leaky basement who's fault is it?
If a contractor damages things while excavating who's fault is it?
Presuming all these things passed inspection who's fault is it?
Or if they're not inspected, who's fault is that?
My feeling for what it's worth is a manufacturer that hears complaints should investigate and where a contractor represents them poorly they should retrain or dismiss.
If their equipment fails they need to back it to the terms of the warranty, anything more is a plus.
Bear in mind I'm not a manufacturer, I'm a contractor and I accept the responsibility for my customers' satisfaction.
j |
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joe.ami
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| 07/10/2009 10:49 PM |
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Posted By galnar on 07/10/2009 2:23 PM
Joe.
What are the industry certs that us consumers should be looking for? I already know I want geothermal in my next home, the trick is finding someone I can count on to install it.
Thanks
Matt
Sorry Matt almost forgot about ya in my last rant....
International Ground Source Heat Pump Association (IGSHPA) is one industry certification vehicle. Folks on this site and Geo Exchange are good guys as well.
Local inspectors are sometimes not dis-inclined to offer referrals.
Don't know anyone in Peoria, but Grandpa Christensen was a physician there for years. Spent many a Christmas (in the '70's) there.
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engineer
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| 07/11/2009 6:52 AM |
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Posted By joe.ami on 07/10/2009 10:13 PM
Geo manufacturers are very established but trying to sell more. I think one of the real challenges for geo pros (and I've said this before) is a change in clientelle. 20 years ago geo was purchased mainly by engineers and gadget guys who were qualified to make the decision to buy. Now it's grandmas and newlyweds due to high fuel costs and tax credits.
Believe me that individually and collectively we are trying to meet the new demand for education, but the buyer must ultimately be responsible to do an appropriate amount of research.
Curiously I think this same change in clients is also leading to the demise of perfectly suitable open loop systems as they are disinterested in extra maintenence.
I'll ask all here out of curiosity a few questions that inspired my thread.....
Regarding manufacturer responsibility, where is the line;
If a contractor installs the wrong duct work size, who's fault is it?
If a contractor installs the wrong loop size who's fault is it?
If a contractor installs the wrong heat pump size who's fault is it?
If a contractor leaves a leaky basement who's fault is it?
If a contractor damages things while excavating who's fault is it?
Presuming all these things passed inspection who's fault is it?
Or if they're not inspected, who's fault is that?
My feeling for what it's worth is a manufacturer that hears complaints should investigate and where a contractor represents them poorly they should retrain or dismiss.
If their equipment fails they need to back it to the terms of the warranty, anything more is a plus.
Bear in mind I'm not a manufacturer, I'm a contractor and I accept the responsibility for my customers' satisfaction.
j
I think you are right on with the observation about the change in clientele. Another aspect of we engineers and gadget guys is that we'll both quality check the system as it is designed and installed (sometimes a nightmare for contractors) and handle both maintenance and minor repairs. Gadget guys are more in tune with system operation so more likely to detect and head off problems early.
I think we agree more than disagree on contractor responsibility - "a manufacturer that hears complaints should investigate and where a
contractor represents them poorly they should retrain or dismiss."
I would ask that manufacturers police their brand by investigating as you describe, pressuring the dealer to make it right, and assisting the customer with complaints to licensing board or other dispute resolution forum. As a last resort, in the extreme case where a dealer fails utterly, I hope that the manufacturer would assist (split costs) incurred by a competent contractor making it right.
One hears from manufacturers "It's the contractor's responsibility, there's nothing we can do..."
Parsing that statement:
"It's the contractor's responsibility..." - TRUE
"...there's nothing we can do." - FALSE
Geo is a well established niche product. For it to become mainstream that change in clientele must be accommodated by a change in how systems are sold and supported.
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Bergy
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| 07/11/2009 8:58 AM |
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Engineer,
Last year, we did a Geo install for a 23 year old engineer. This young lady was fresh out of school and KNEW IT ALL. To say she wanted precision(AKA Anal)would be an under statement. I was working on the start-up one afternoon and heard her arguing with the electrician. Seems some of the gang boxes were higher than others by about a quarter of an inch and demanded he resolve the issue. After some "discussion" the electrician said he would be happy to comply...for $100/box!
She was not a happy camper!!
The better part of valor, for me, was to take a break before she found me!
Bergy
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engineer
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| 07/11/2009 9:48 AM |
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I know how some of us can be...
good move getting lost! |
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600rmk
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| 07/13/2009 11:53 AM |
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| This is not meant as a rant, merely stating facts about recent quotes that I received for a geo system for a new construction sips home. I have three different quotes in-hand. One of them was $37K, one of them was $52K and the most recent was for $62.5k. Those are some substantial differences. So for someone to figure out the true cost of one of these systems makes it hard to validate geo. At least it does for me. It makes we question geo all together. I'm not debating whether geo is right or wrong but the info I'm getting does not seem consistent. I didn't want to bore the forum with details of the house or the geo systems, but if someone is interested in knowing, they can send me a messege. |
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TechGromit
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| 07/13/2009 3:09 PM |
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Posted By Bergy on 07/11/2009 8:58 AM
Engineer,
.... I was working on the start-up one afternoon and heard her arguing with the electrician. Seems some of the gang boxes were higher than others by about a quarter of an inch and demanded he resolve the issue.
Jobs like this you way over price the job and hope you dont get it, unless your desperate for work. People like this are a contractors worst nightmare. She's a fool in the long run, contractors talk, once word gets around, all the good contractors will stay far away from her, the only people she's going to get to work for her will be second rate contractors that need the work. When times are good, good contractors have more work then they can handle.
My frandfather used to be in construction and he would over bid all of his jobs. This way if the customer asked for something extra he throw it in for "Free" and they were happy, thinking they were getting something for nothing. In reality he priced this in to all of his jobs just in case.
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