All energy will be increasing in price as cheap oil gets to be a distant memory. Electric will be no exception to that.

But if you have to bet, hydronics do have one major advange handyhammer... you can heat the water with anything that heats water.

I can't even tell you how many 70's electric baseboard system replacements I've seen. Electricity seemed like a great deal then too. For a small area, I'd use it. For a whole house... ONLY if the heat load were VERY low. For anything larger, you can always use a hot water system with an electric boiler, if you like.

I would think if you include solar as your primary heat generating source, and liquid (water or glycol) as your heat transfer medium than this should minimize costs overall. Using drid power only as a back-up or long cold nights. And the problem with nails in the pipes, well a good design should keep the pipes away from your planned walls. No need to be that close from what I have read.

Your right NRT.Rob, electricity will be no exception to the rising cost of energy but my point is that the inflationary curve of electricity is SIGNIFICANTLY less steep than that of other energy sources (fuels) that are used in hydronic systems. Wheather we think electricity is cheap vs. expensive or clean vs. dirty, it will be more widely required because of its diverse ways of creating it. I also agree that various ancient forms (circa 1970) of electric heating was inefficient like baseboard heaters. Today, the thermostats that control and modulate an electric radiant system are making them vastly more effiencient than fueled hydronic systems at many levels. Also the insulation we have available in new construction is much better at holding the heat we introduce into a home. However, one of the biggest reasons why I, as a builder, prefer more times than not an electric radiant heating system is that there are no short or long term maintenance fees to service or repair water based systems. Water is corrossive and will always require maintenance and repair to prevent catastrophic problems down the road.

Here are my thoughts... For the first level, that has the slab on grade floor, I'll go with hydronic radiant, using solar and high efficiency oil boiler (Kerr).
For the second level (which I'd like to be mainly hardwood), I thought to go with hydronic baseboards. I'll have one system to heat water for DHW and house heating. I've been told that installing hydronic baseboards is half the price of hydronic floor.

Baseboard heating is half the price and probably half as efficient than in floor heating or forced air for that matter. My advice would be to contact the guys at warmzone and give them your project dimensions and let them take a stab at it. I have remodeled dozens of homes with varying types of radiant heat and have found these guys to be the best at 'zoning' radiant heat based on the project. Warmzone is a design center for radiant projects like yours does not make any of the systems they sell and yet seem to be well versed in a variety of radiant systems. To my knowlege, they are the only radiant heating company out there with an open mind to these varying types of systems and will often sell me two or three different products to accomodate each area just right. --Keep us posted!

That's a bit overstated. Baseboard isn't necessarily that much less efficient than anything else, especially if you size it for lower water temperatures. They have often been installed inefficiently (most people's boilers could be turned down 30 degrees and cut in half for output right now), but that doesn't mean they don't have a place. In fact, I have in cases had baseboard systems operate at lower temperatures than a radiant floor could have because of finish floor choices, available floor surface area, or subfloor thickness in retrofits.

Radiant ceiling is a cheap alternative to radiant floor though, which is still radiant in nature, easy to install in flat ceilings for just a 3/4" drop in ceiling height, and low temperature. I generally find it to be cost competitive with baseboard, it allows the omission of a high temperature demand which can simplify piping as well.

Panel radiators can be somewhat cost effective too (or much less so, depending on aesthetics).

I will need to refer a bunch of homeowners to you then because I have not seen one properly tuned to reach optimal heating/operational efficiency. I agree with you on radiant ceiling heat as a good alternative especially for remodeling projects with underfloor access. However, I am a converted electric radiant guy (no more water!) now and have used a mylar type product from Warmzone called RetroHeat. That stuff is inexpensive and nearly 100% efficient, it has a nifty little sensor probe that you glue into the floor via a drilled hole and tells the system when to shut on and off. Super clean and efficient and no maintenance which is probably bad for me in the long run. :)

Ele heat is only efficient in terms of $$ in heat pump mode. Sure they will state the ele heat is 100% effeciet. But that is based on watts of loss due to comparing to gas burning flue discharge! Your toster oven is 100% efficient!. Heat pumps gather free energy, at a cost. Air to Air pumps are fine above 25 deg. geo is fine at all temps with big up front investments.

Geo heat-> radient does require duel systems for AC and heat. One water based for heat and one air based for cooling and humidity control. No problem. the system is split between H2O and air. during most winter conditions the H2O system covers all heat loads. During back up mode, the H2O to air will produce heated air as well.

Patrick T.

I'm in a similar situation to the OP. Our house is in Calgary, AB, and that means winter temps down to -40 and summer highs to +35C. We're doing a full reno of our house [i.e. gutting it and adding a second storey], and will be going with radiant for basement, main and upper. I have allergies, so there will be no carpet anywhere in the house. We will pour 1-1/2" - 2" polished concrete slab for all three levels, and use in-floor hydronic heat with a tankless gas heater. Although we won't be installing it for a couple of years, we will do a rough-in for solar hot water [Calgary gets 220+ days of sun each year]. Heat from gas is cheaper than electricity in our area.

Does anyone see anything in this scenario that we should be concerned with?

Yes. Use a modulating/condensing boiler, not a tankless water heater, as a heat source.

Your particular scenario with all that mass is not the worst for a tankless, but a mod/con will pay the cost differential back in a reasonable timeframe if you have a full sized house, on your (very likely) all low temperature system. Think mid 90's in efficiency.

Is the mod/con boiler suitable for the domestic hot water circuit as well?  My quick Google shows it being used primarily for heating floors, but not for heating up regular household water.  I'm not familiar with mod/con at all...

you use an "indirect fired water heater", which is a tank with a coil in it. mod/cons usually produce such hot water at a higher efficiency than other DHW options as well. As long as the tank isn't in very cold space, it's the best bet all alround. Again, predicated on the assumption that you have a real heat load here... saving on a small load takes longer to pay back the differential, naturally.

I am considering the use of hydronic baseboards instead of hydronic radiant floor, in order to reduce costs, to have a better control of the areas heated and a faster response when heat is needed. I wonder though where do I pass the PEX pipes from the water boiler to the hydronic baseboards? For example, on the first floor, where I have slab on grade, if I go with hydronic radiant floor all the PEX tubes will be in the concrete floor. If I go with hydronic baseboards will I have to pass the PEX tubes through the ceiling and walls? Or I should also insert them in the concrete floor? This is a new construction, and I am in the design phase.
Thanks,
Beno

"It depends", of course. If you do put it in concrete, don't put it in bare.

An update (we are still designing...)
I prefered to be able to use wood for whole house heating, so I thought to use the Caddy EPA wood furnace with oil or electric backup. There are no EPA wood boilers in our area (like TARM, EKO etc) and I am afraid of high costs with radiant (initial and service).
But then I spoke with a builder who said that the air ducts for central heating are expensive too, rough estimate to $2.5 / sq.ft. of living space. For 3600 sq.ft. that's about $9000 only for the ducts. These will be non-flexible ducts, to be able to be connected to a wood furnace.
Can anybody confirm if the air ducts are that expensive? This will make the radiant floor attractive again, plus the use of a couple of wood stoves to lower the oil costs, so the heating will not come exclusively from the floor.

Please be careful with wood burning - Equipment can be highly stressed & failures are common after just a few years
Hope this link still works. He's a guy who used to build them. LINK

On Anonther bandwgon- Getting back to efficiency- It amazes me that there are still those that will argue for electric heat at 100% effiicient! While some electricity prodution is from cheap "fuel" the balance is from expensive gas & fuel oil nuclear & even coal. We in Ontario are being protected against dramatic electricity priced by our government who will soon see that nobody can afford to build the required new power plants. Then either electricity goes up dramatically or they use our tax dollars to subsudize electricity.. I hope they do not interfere with the true & proper cost of electricity , distorting the market place but who knows

I don't give a damn about efficiency until I am comparing apples & apples -- Always convert from the true fuel cost to the actual heat recovered see this site LINK

Electricity is Exactly where our priorities should be! Every house needs electricity, it can power virtually everything, and there are 'green' ways of producing it. We need to stop producing electricity with oil and natural gas, and utilize more nuclear, clean coal and 'green' methods. Our infrastructure also needs to be vastly upgraded(rebuilt).

If we could remove political and special interests, we could get there.

Before making a final decision, or talking to contractors, I'd like to have an idea how much can the radiant heating in a slab cost, without the source of heat. Only the PEX pipes, pumps, manifolds etc, all materials and labor per sq.ft. Thanks!

Electricity is needed in every house so Gov't will TRY to keep costs down but it's a losing battle in Ontario with aging equipment & rising fuel costs. I am deliberating on DIY power & heat systems which have a good operating cost if you need year round heat. They are effective because they use the hear as well as develop power, Only problem they are way to pricey as the developers need them to become a high volume item to cut manufacturing costs. They are the wave of the future & fit well with radiant floors Google Whispergen.

In California our politicians, were we’re building the state has received a 500% increase in tax revenue from property tax since 2000 yet (after spending like drunken teenage sailors on leave) they claim we are broke.

We have to do remodel vs. a new construction or move. Therefore we're using sip and reusing our foundation (concrete slab).

We want to do radiant but I have concerns about two issues.

First: how effective is it over old slab with a reflectance barrier?


Also: will the reflecting barrier risk slippage or cracks since it will not be firmly bonded to the old slab?

Thanks for any input or experiences!