design of radiant system
Last Post 20 Oct 2008 10:06 AM by . 5 Replies.
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gordUser is Offline
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15 Aug 2008 11:03 AM

hi,
i am installing a geothermal and will have x gallons of hot water. i have read and looked at a lot of different designs for moving this water around and have some questions

1) pump per zone or series pumps to do all? i have seen both? 
2) joist insulating. it seems the plates are everyones recomoindation but the after that insulating seems to have multiple options. foil / bat insulation / distance from pex??? has anyone yet determined the best?
3) long loops and short loops on the same header. is this where the one common pump fails to work?
4) i never seem to find any information on pump efficiencies?
5) ready made systems? are there vendors that sell complete manifold / pump / thermo systems? seems there are but how about a reference for one

thanks
   




jbishopcommUser is Offline
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16 Aug 2008 12:27 PM
Let's answer each question one at a time...

1)  In a typical small to mid-size home, it's more efficient to use one single system pump -- and use 24v zone valves for zoning -- than to use a pump for each zone.  Each pump can cost $30 to $50 per year to operate, depending on your local electric rates.  Zone valves are a fraction of that to operate.  

2)  Foil-faced bats with a minimum R-13 is a good way to go (install foil face up).  Radiant heat wants to do just that -- radiate -- in all directions (most people assume "heat rises" -- no, warm air rises).  Furthermore, radiant heat will radiate most towards the path of least resistance.  In under-floor applications, the path of least resistance is typically down -- unless you insulate properly. 

Avoid "Astro-Foil."  It's only rated for something like an R-4, and based on hard-learned lessons, it's terrible to use under radiant floors -- unless it's used in conjunction with fiberglass or blown-cellulose.  I've seen people use Astro-foil just below the tubing to create the 1" air-space recommended by most radiant manufacturers, and then go over the Astro-foil with bats.  This works well.

3)  As for loop-length.  It will make life easier if you can make all loops fairly equal in length (within 10%) -- it will keep flow-rates through each loop fairly equal.  That said, it's not always possible.  Not a big deal.  Most all brass, bronze or stainless-steel manifolds have balancing valves that allow you to balance flow-rates across the header.  Also, if you realy want to get slick, you can purchase manifolds with flow-meters to give you a visual indicator of flow through each loop -- and then use the balancing mechanism to equalize the loops.  That said, NEVER install loops (or circuits, as they are most often referred to as) that exceed the recommended maximum circuit-length.  For most brands of PEX, the maximum circuit-lengths for each size tubing is as followed: 

5/16 = 250'
3/8 = 300'
1/2 = 400'
5/8 = 500'

4)  Pump-efficiency is a complicated engineering matter.  If you're doing a residential install, you're likely going to use one of four makes of pump -- Grundfos, Taco, Wilo or Bell & Gosset.  There are slight differences in each pump's efficiency, but only slight.  You want to be concerned less with efficiency, and more concerned with choosing the right size pump -- not too small, not too big.  In a typical 2-story 2,000 to 3,000 sq. ft. home, I almost always can use a Grundfos 1558 or Taco 007 (small pumps).  There is a method for sizing pumps correctly, but would take too long to explain here.  That said, you'll know you have the right size pump of the Delta-T (temperature difference) between the supply and return is about 20 degrees.  If it's much more than that, your pump is too small.  If it's less than 20 degrees, you're too big.  If by chance your pump is too big, you can always install a balancing valve (a simple gate valve will do), and close it slightly (to restrict flow), until you get the desired Delta-T. 

5)  There are "ready-made" systems, but I find that each has its limitations.  There are some independent outfits making pre-fabbed control panels, but these are often rudimentary in design and, to be frank, "cheesy."  The established radiant manufacturers often have pre-fabbd systems, but they are intended for pro's that know exactly what they need and understand how to integrate them into a larger design.  What you might opt for is a custom-designed, pre-fabbed panel that is tailored exactly to your application, and come completely pre-wired, mixing and/or injection controls pre-programmed, etc.  If you're interested in something like this, drop an e-mail to [email protected] (put custom panel in the subject heading). 

Hope this helps.

-j
 
    
NRT.RobUser is Offline
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18 Aug 2008 01:18 PM
J made a very good post here, I will simply say that the max loop lengths he posts are not appropriate in many cases. Play it safe numbers are around 75% shorter than his figures; his figures are max figures for an aggressively engineered system only. If you don't really know what you are doing you should be ABLE to hit a 10 degree dT, shoot for 20, and that leaves you some room for balancing output if things are less than perfect. flow meters/balancing valves on loops are very recommended.
Rockport Mechanical<br>RockportMechanical.com
gordUser is Offline
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26 Aug 2008 08:07 AM

thanks

i need to absorb. i will likely ask more

NRT.RobUser is Offline
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26 Aug 2008 08:56 AM
I should have said "75% of" not "75% shorter", just FYI.
Rockport Mechanical<br>RockportMechanical.com
shaedogUser is Offline
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20 Oct 2008 10:06 AM

thank you for very valuable information.

i have started to build. this project due to financial reasons is being done is small stages. i have my "pond loop" installed (sized by profesionals).

i have purchased a climatemaster 036 geothermal unit.

 

i have installed (almost) 80 gallon (two 40 gal) tanks for hot water storage.

 

next is a manifold.

my question even if i know that you "get what you pay for" is regarding the mainfold. i plan over time to have up to 6 zones. so, i should buy a 6 zone, i think i will usae one pump feeding the manifold until i add enough zones to require aditional pumps which will likely be on the zones.
i will for the next year or so only have three 125 foot 1/2 pex zones in concrete.

thee seems to be a lot of range in what seems to be equivelent style / option manifolds? stainless / brass / ????

i like the control and flow meters on each zone. i will likely use a taco with terparature controler on/off system to start

any manifolds recomended???????

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