JadeHaus
New Member
Posts:7
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| 17 Aug 2008 11:55 PM |
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Greetings GBT Forum.
I would appreciate your opinions on the design elements of a Hydronic Radiant Heating system for our new residence, to be located in Southern CA at an elevation of 5,300'. Total livable space is approx. 2,100 sq. ft. Here are some of the current details.
DHW System
Riannai R94LSe Tankless Water Heater
Uponor PEX-a Tubing (using a closed-branch design)
Engineered Plastic (EP) manifolds
Fittings – ProPEX EP Expanser
Hydronic Radiant Floor Heating System
Mr. PEX Systems - 1/2" PEX-a, Tubing w/EVOH oxygen barrier, spaced 6"-8"
Wirsbo TruFLOW Manifold
Taco 0011-IFC Cartridge Circulator or the Grundfos Circulation Pump - Model UPS15-58FC
Flexcon ExpansionTanks
Tekmar Digital Controlers
Gypsum Underlayment - Maxxon's Therma-Floor
Nail Down Sleeper System
Heat Source - I've narrow my selection for a High Efficient Condensing Gas-Fired Boiler, down to the:
Munchkin Contender (by Heat Products)
Triangle Tube – Solo 175
Other Boilers that I've considered:
Baxi - Luna HT
Buderus - GB142
Burnham -
Dunkirk - Quantum
Utica -
Hamilton Eng. - EVO micro
Lochinvar - Knight
NTI - Trinity
Peerless – Pinnacle
Viessmann - Vitodens
Weil-McLain - Ultra
With so many options to choose from, I'm trying to evaluate the most cost effective products, by weighing manufactures reputation, life expectancy, service repair record, warranty, etc.
Thanks for your input.
Jade | |
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NRT.Rob
Veteran Member
Posts:1741
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| 18 Aug 2008 01:25 PM |
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why a separate tankless?
the prestige would be more efficient at creating hot water, if you have any significant DHW usage in the home. that's a pretty big unit though for a house your size. you need a heat load calculation. I would be very surprised if a 175 were required.
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| Rockport Mechanical<br>RockportMechanical.com |
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BadgerBoilerMN
Veteran Member
Posts:2010
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| 18 Aug 2008 08:23 PM |
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Talk to the local heating contractors as they will be the ones installing and servicing your unit. All Mod/Cons are only as good as the factory trained installers. An indirect fired water heater is certainly the only way to heat hot water. |
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| MA<br>www.badgerboilerservice.com |
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JadeHaus
New Member
Posts:7
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| 21 Aug 2008 09:48 PM |
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Rob,
Why a separate tankless? Good question. As I recall, my building design recommended it. He's not that familiar with radiant heating, and there are only a couple of plumbing contractors that install the hydronic systems. Again, as I recall, the Cond/Boiler was selected for the dedicated space heating, in a closed system. And the H.E. Tankless Gas Water Heater was selected for dedicated DHW. The Designer hired a Consultant to do the Title 24 Energy Calculations, however the consultant made an error by basing the numbers on a standard gas hot water heater. So the report is being redone. With that said, you're probably correct that the Solo 175 has an excessive capacity.
Jade |
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JadeHaus
New Member
Posts:7
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| 21 Aug 2008 10:26 PM |
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Morgan,
One plumbing contractor has experience installing NTI-Trinity, Viessmann, and now is recommending the Prestige by Triangle Tube. Another plumbing contractor recommends the Munckin Contender.
The pairing of the Prestige Solo and the TT Smart Series Indirect Fired Water Heater, appear to be a terrific system. I see the Solo 110 is priced just under $3,000, but I haven't seen a price on the Smart 40 or 50.
I am intrigued with the Heat Transfer Products Vision 1 System, paring the Munckin Heater and the Super Stor Ultra Indirect Water Heater. The Advance Control System, Two-Temperature System, Indirect Priority Functions and Warm Weather Shut Down features sound to be good benefits. Not sure the price range for the Super Stor Ultra.
The Viessmann Vitodens 100 offers a LT warranty, 95.1% AFUE Rating, and is priced under $3,000. The Rinnai Tankless is priced between $1,200 and $1,500. Would you say that the price to install a tankless or an indirect WH would be about the same? Thanks...
Jade
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NRT.Rob
Veteran Member
Posts:1741
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| 22 Aug 2008 09:35 AM |
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the prestige with indirect is totally the way to go in most cases.
ALL mod/cons come with electronics that are similar to the vision 1 system except the vitodens 100 I believe which requires an additional reset control. vision 1 is not special in the market.
tankless and indirect should be similar in costs, though I would expect installation labor to be less on the indirect, and efficiency better if you use domestic regularly. |
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| Rockport Mechanical<br>RockportMechanical.com |
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NRT.Rob
Veteran Member
Posts:1741
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| 22 Aug 2008 09:36 AM |
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also I share your contractor's recommendation for the prestige, it's a great unit. I'm just not sure you need the big one. |
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| Rockport Mechanical<br>RockportMechanical.com |
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BadgerBoilerMN
Veteran Member
Posts:2010
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| 22 Aug 2008 10:16 AM |
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Rob is right again. I have installed all three with great success. As Rob points out, a heat load analysis is mandatory. Once secured, anyone can choose the correct size boiler. As most of the Mod/Cons share the same warranties and features, I advise people to buy from an experienced contractor they trust. Look at their pictures, ask them for references and factory training certificates, but demand a heat load analysis. This request usually separates the smart guys from the average.
I currently service several Vitodens 200's and find them quite acceptable. They also have a lifetime HX warranty and usually are the highest priced to comparable units with the exception of the 100, which Rob correctly points out lacks features the others offer as standard.
Indirect fired water heaters are such a bargain; I rarely shop and often use the tank that matches the boiler. I have an extreme prejudice against wasteful and unnecessary double wall indirects but otherwise try to be easy to get along with.
Tankless water heaters are not engineered for heating spaces and all but two - the Navien and a new model by Noritz - are not high efficiency.
Proper design and installation of any ModCon or high efficiency condensing boiler is critical.
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| MA<br>www.badgerboilerservice.com |
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NRT.Rob
Veteran Member
Posts:1741
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| 22 Aug 2008 10:46 AM |
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what do you think of that navien unit morgan? it does seem that a condensing unit with 50 degree inlet would be as good as it gets, if it's properly designed. |
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| Rockport Mechanical<br>RockportMechanical.com |
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BadgerBoilerMN
Veteran Member
Posts:2010
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| 22 Aug 2008 11:29 AM |
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We have one in with no problems. Slick, and with a small buffer tank negating typical flow problems. Still not a space heater, though with a heat box, one could argue.
ModCons still RULE!
hehhehee |
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| MA<br>www.badgerboilerservice.com |
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jchaters
New Member
Posts:11
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| 27 Oct 2008 11:10 PM |
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Have you thought about an air to water heat pump which will also provide cooling? Great efficiency. |
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JadeHaus
New Member
Posts:7
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| 28 Oct 2008 01:09 AM |
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Good idea. However I'm not planning on incorporating an A/C unit as our site location is in the mountains at an elevation of 5300'. Although we have a number of hot days in Aug. and Sep., ceiling fans provide an inexpensive alternative. Building with a combination of ICFs for the basement level and SIPs on the main level and roof, I feel we'll have a tight building envelope. Code requiremets call for all dual-pane windows to be tempered, cha ching. We are also incorporating an HRV system. I'm currently researching options for an Indoor Air Quality system. So the bottom line in considering an Air to Water Heat Pump system comes down to cost. Having said that, what manufactures have you used or considered? Thanks!
Jade
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