Slab heating beneath an elevated framed floor
Last Post 12 Apr 2010 11:14 AM by NRT.Rob. 9 Replies.
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yuka-atatakaiUser is Offline
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08 Apr 2010 10:38 PM
A brief explanation of slab heat installation:  Slab thickness 150mm, thickened at areas having stem walls, stem wall height 400mm, stem wall thicknesses 150mm, reinforcement 13mm (1/2") rebar @ 250mm (10") centers each way, prepared over a crushed rock bed, seamless vapor barrier beneath slab, no insulation planned for beneath slab, 2" EPS fixed to interior of forms prior to pouring concrete, after stripping forms, 4x8x2" EPS laid horizontally (slightly sloping outward) beneath grade around perimeter of foundation.

Proposed floor heating- 1/2" hePEX @ 250mm o.c. 5-300 foot loops, single-zone.

First floor be be constructed of 2x4 framing members @ 455mm centers; gridwork of beams beneath floor- consisting of 4x4 @ 910mm centers, supported by adjustable steel jack posts (same 910mm center) gridwork.  Floor to be uninsulated--but elevated total of 580mm (23") from surface of concrete slab.  Crawlspace to be unventilated.  Access to area beneath floor through floor hatch, somewhat restrictive (but normal construction technique for this region)- (Mainland Japan)--(Area surrounding Tokyo 100km radius).

This design is new for here, but I do not know if it is new for other areas.  Typically someone would use tubing directly in a slab, or sandwiched into floor, or staple-up etc.  But none so far would be beneath the floor and a significant space separating the source from heated area.  This would be a very simple application if it were done prior to pouring the initial slab when all the other mechanical were being installed.  This would be very cost effective. 

The idea is to create a heated thermal mass that would radiate into the living space.  Initially my only thought of controls for this system would be an infloor temperature sensor that maintained slab temperature.  Other thoughts would have an indoor thermostat, an outdoor sensor all coupled together (maybe controlling some kind of a mixing valve) that could control the temperature going to the slab below.  I would not want to modify the boiler/or heat source in any way---that might void warranties for the unit.  Rather, control a constant boiler temperature and externally mix the water for further controls.  But it has to be very simple.  We are living in the dark ages here concerning indoor heating comfort.

I would like to know from all you professionals if my idea has any merits.  Also what add ons would be recommended to tune the system for greater efficiency.  The heat source could be almost anything. A variety of heat pumps are available here (almost over the counter), as well as kerosene, LPG, water heaters and boilers.  Some of the heat pumps available are approved for heating applications but do not qualify for special rate controlled electrical discounts.  Normal water heating using ECO CUTE (heat pumps) can utilize off peak rates.

I know that this would be a very slow reacting system--but on the other hand would be very energy efficient.

This is a long post--so I await your professional responses.
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09 Apr 2010 10:50 AM
This would be very hard to control, but more importantly it would be very weak in its output.

I have estimated this before and you could probably expect no more than something like 10 BTUs/sq ft in output or so. And your water temperature requirements would be much higher than normal, so no heat pumps. Basically what you are doing is trying to heat a small room (the crawlspace) to a high enough level that it's "heat bleed" to the floor above is adequate to heat the space. If you have an R2 floor (2" of wood) and a 10 BTU/sq ft load (very low... I call that superinsulated), you'd need a 90 degree crawlspace.

it would be much more energy efficient to heat the floor directly.
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09 Apr 2010 05:38 PM
I really appreciate your input.  I wish that there was someone like you near that I could refer to regularly.  Here are my thoughts based on the way my little house functions.
My house is a total of 1495 sf, the lower level being my office space, boiler (utility room), toilet, audio niche, parking space (workshop); 2f is our small living space, 1BR, LR, DR, KIT, bath, second toilet and a few storage areas.  I am located about 80 miles from Tokyo in Nikko JP very near the start point for the (Japan Southern Alps).  We get freezing temperatures and a little snow but really mild compared to my previous digs near the Boundary Water Canoe Area of Northern Minnesota (-40degF sometimes colder).

Lower level is 6" reinforced concrete with PEX inbedded (4 loops), average spacing 8" o.c.; upper level is a sandwitched installation with tubing imbedded into 1 1/2" mortar bed with 5/8" thick oak flooring over.-(3 loops) one zone.

To my standards, the house is relatively well insulated--but could be much better (depending on amount of money you want to spend for the insulation).

The boiler is a Japanese unit: specs output 36kw, burner 4.3liter/hr kerosene.  called FF because it is located inside the house and has a double chimney-one part drawing combustion air from the outside that surrounds the exhaust tube.  This is the smallest that I could find after several attempts with various manufacturers.

The house is heated comfortably over the period November to the beginning of March for an average of 5.2 liters of kerosene per day. 

I had the experience of not having my boiler operational last year in February.  I was applying urethane paint to the concrete floor (full lower level) ---no heat on for 3 days.  The house remained comfortable for the entire period.  When I replaced the boiler into the freshly finished boiler room, the house temperature was still 62 degrees!  I believe this is because of the huge thermal mass of the first floor.

I visualize how easy it is to install the tubing into the foundation slab prior to the beginning of house construction--compared with how difficult it is to install above a subfloor.  And other companies here use imbedded electrical elements to heat in a similar fashion. (However they can take advantage of special electrical rates for using storage heat).

The ECO CUTE water heaters here have a capacity of up to 460L of water @ max temperature of 90deg C.  I was thinking of using something like that---the label says something like a COP of 4.8.  I really don't know what that means.  I thought of using it even without the special electrical rates.  I think that they have back-up elements that could be used on the initial heat up cycle and then rely on the ECO heater to maintain temperatures.  I know that I need some type of a mixing valve to regulate the temperature of the water supplied to the slab.

I look forward to suggestions and helping me to come up with a workable solution.
yuka-atatakaiUser is Offline
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09 Apr 2010 06:05 PM
Here is another thought.

Why is it possible to heat a floor with tubing suspended between the floor joist (typically you would not drill a floor joist- except dead on center) without causing structural weakness.  Example 2x10--(center being approx 4 1/2" below floor) or 2x12 another inch or so lower.  (What is the water temperature in say pex-al-pex this suspension method??? 60 deg C???

And not be efficient to do the same---but Pex in concrete, huge thermal mass water temp 60 deg C but actual concrete maybe 40 to 50 deg C?  Is the distance that great a deal????

I do not have a clue? 

I have read a lot of your posts from NRT Rob,  Like to hear something from the Blueridge guy and the other guy in Minnesota! 

You all sound like college professors but with a little dirt under your fingernails from doing the job right.
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10 Apr 2010 06:56 AM
Today, I spoke to another person here--he has a gridwork of electrical elements installed beneath his floor similar to my proposed installation with hydronic.
The difference is:  The design begins with styrofoam or EPS under the entire base, then a layer of sand with similar to highway mesh (this is used as a cheap template to attach the electrical elements- then a little more sand and the regular slab reinforcement rebar.

The perimeter of the foundation is insulated as well with EPS.
His controls regulate the slab temperature but it is usually  27 deg C., but lower when the outdoor temperatures are more mild.

Along with that, he has (his terminology) galleries around the perimeter of the building.  These are grilled openings located beneath window openings.  The purpose is?? for cold air to fall or warm air to rise and wash over the cold surfaces---

His slab is heated (off-peak) 11PM to 7(AM), or should I say charged and it radiates for the off 16 hours.

This is similar to my proposal but mine would be using hot water instead--maybe I need to have louvers as well in the floor--a way to create movement to circulate the warmed air within the house.  But my hope was to have no openings if it would work--so no unnecessary air movement or drafts.

Still trying to make the idea work.
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10 Apr 2010 09:36 AM
when you do suspended tube in a joist bay, you are heating a 2" strip of joists to a much higher temperature... a typical range would be something like 40 to 60 deg C or even higher in some cases. Plus you actually get significant radiation from the pipe over an inch of distance, so some heat transfer is not dependent on air temp of the joists.

You are talking about trying to heat a 2 foot crawlspace to the same level or above to achieve the same heat output. the extra loss you would drive out of the crawlspace would be very significant, and heat output less. Thermal mass does not help you here: mass is a storage device, not a delivery aid. Direct contact is a delivery aid, which is why tubing in concrete heats a room much easier than tubing in a joist bay.... tubing is in good contact with the fairly conductive concrete, which is typically the floor of the room.

In your case it's not though. you can really heat up the crawlspace efficiently, but it's not efficiently heating the room above it.

your friend is using the slab as a time battery. You can do that. but you can't do it very well with a heat pump unless you guys have fairly high temp heat pumps over there.. over here you can't get much more than 45 deg C water out of them. electrical elements are essentially "high temp". and holes in the floor would definitely help significantly...

and your friend may be saving some cost on electricity... I have no idea how much savings you have in offpeak usage... but he is losing significant extra energy out of that crawlspace. there is a lot of question there in how far ahead, if at all, he is. If it's a big savings, the extra loss may be worth it. based on your comments, and my estimate that his crawlspace is probably about 35 deg C, his heat load through the crawlspace is probably 50% higher than one at regular room temperature.

You could reduce that of course, by improving the insulation of the crawlspace.

I can see the attractiveness in initial installation cost and space savings which I assume is a major issue for you. You need a real engineer to work these numbers for you though.
Rockport Mechanical<br>RockportMechanical.com
yuka-atatakaiUser is Offline
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11 Apr 2010 07:53 AM

Thank you again for your expertise, it is always appreciated.

So the flaws are:
  a) distance is too large between slab and floor surface above
  b) a lack of direct contact for the heat to conduct to the upper surface
  c) inability using a heat-pump to produce high temperature water
  d) issue of insulation, unknown thickness/placement for optimum efficiency

I can adjust the distance by design to make the slab closer to the floor surface.  If the floor has no openings is one situation where you rely on simple radiation from the slab.  (like tubes suspended below a floor at 40 to 60deg C.) But you think that a slab at 40-60deg C (entire surface area below a floor) vs tubes spaced 8" oc.  That the slab would radiate much more than the pipes simply because of surface area--if that is a factor.  So narrowing the distance would make the idea a workable option.

The lack of contact is a problem--normal floors here are a multiple variety of woods but this is the finish of choice.  So direct contact is difficult to achieve without a lot of special preparation work.  Wood is easier to walk on than concrete because it absorbs some of the impact shock while walking etc.  Tile, linoleum, stone...all make great choices for floor heating but that would be a very hard sell--at least here.

Heat pumps here can produce water at temperatures up to 194 deg F with an ambient temperature of 14 deg F.  (small publication "ECO-CUTE-CO2 Heat Pump Water Heater-in Japan" authored by Mr. Takehiro Maruyama of Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory.  If you surf the internet under this title--you can read the little brochure.  I do not know if these units are available in the USA but they have been developed in a partnership between TEPCO (Tokyo Electric Power Company) and a variety of manufacturers.  I do not know all of them but I have seen Panasonic (National), and Daiken in operation and they are everything that they are promoted to be.  The problem is that they are very expensive--retailing for around $8000 per unit.  Wholesale is quite a bit less but still pricy.  If you want to test one, I could probably locate one and arrange for shipment to the USA... I guess that payment would be something that would have to be arranged.  Also, I do not know if there are any restrictions on exporting these units--I cannot see why.  They are available in 200V/100V 50 HZ and 60 HZ configurations.  Japan is split between these two different electrical supplies.  (So "c" is not a problem--except for cost), It would be a very green solution instead of using LPG or kerosene boilers.  These are much cheaper though.

Finally, the insulation has to be decided.  The entire design for the foundation would probably change to have an additional slab being poured after the initial foundation was completed.  Perimeter insulation installed, interior level raised, EPS base installed, tubing laid and finally a second slab poured.  Still easier than tubing installed in a sandwitch above the floor.  And an advantage of using the slab as "time battery".

Electrical rates (2008):  0700-1000  $.21/kwh
                                      1000-1700  $.26/kwh, (summer) $.31/kwh
                                      1700-2300  $.21/kwh
                                      2300-0700  $.07/kwh

This is a special rate for plans utilizing storage type of heat, ECO-Cute water heating, Area Storage Heaters (with special bricks inside) etc.  This is cheaper for persons who are away from the home during the daytime hour but questionable when someone works from home--- The non-controlled rate is probably $.23/kwh.

This is my reasoning for trying to use the slab heat as a "time battery" (your words), and hopefully use an ECO-Cute as the heat source, controlled time @$.07/kwh.  This depends on the Utility accepting my design as equivalent to the Area Storage Heaters (chikku-netsu) units.  This is still a big IF!

The other design using the electrical elements can be viewed at a sight: http://www.enertec.co.jp, all the information is in Japanese but maybe you could use somekind of translation tool to get an approximate translation into English.  I think that the information can be followed even without a translation.  I saw the brochure the first time yesterday.  Just interesting---a similar design as my initial premise but using electrical elements instead.  Please let me know what you think.  My friend has had it in operation for about 5 years now--he said that he would do it again if he built again.  There is a big plus to that design because of some kind of a rebate from the gov't or TEPCO?? I do not know from whom--but it amounts to around $98 per month indefinitely.  His initial installation would be paid back in 10 yrs with this alone.

Your final line is right on target.  The second part: finding a real engineer is like pulling teeth, I have met a lot and there are many around here--basically because of the automobile industry in this area.  However, most of the ones that I have met have their head in a bubble or cloud or... and they are great if you stay inside their bubble.  But few can grasp anything outside that sphere.  I would rather someone point me in the right direction ---where to find the formulas to crunch OR find someone with similar interests to massage the issue to find the best results.  I would believe and trust someone who has worked with these systems over a degree anytime.  I build homes for a living and can do every aspect of the project--from design through completion.  I do not build a lot of houses but the few I build are built well.  I never have to be ashamed to meet a previous customer or present them with a bill for my services.   I guess you can consider me a carpenter by trade but there are many things that interest me --it all has to do with finding a better way to live economically.  It keeps me thinking younger even though I am not.

You have given me a lot to think about--thank you for that.  Please continue to give good advice.

NRT.RobUser is Offline
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12 Apr 2010 08:43 AM
You're unlikely to get the slab 1" from the subfloor, so reducing the distance will likely not help you all that much. it will reduce excessive extra losses a bit though. the holes in the floor would be a bigger improvement I believe. for the sake of efficiency I would minimize that height, of course.

we don't have any high temperature heat pumps over here yet... daikin is bringing one soon, I'm told. but there has to be a penalty in COP for getting such hot water temperatures, I assume. if you have such units over there though then you're right, you could do hotter water temps. I wonder what COP they claim for such units compared to straight electric resistance heat though. might not be worthwhile if you can time shift your whole load as is.

you just can't go any hotter than 60 deg C water in concrete. and you probably don't want to go that hot.

it all depends on your final heat load though. If you build a very good envelope, the heat bleed you could get this way could do the job. If my conversion is good (it's early, no promises) I think 10 BTUs/sq ft is about 30 watts/m2... hitting that would be doable without too much effort. higher than that would require some serious investigation and number crunching... I'd give it a definite maybe
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12 Apr 2010 10:34 AM
Well, that is where we are today.  
   We somewhat decided on lining the proposed foundation with 2" EPS, exterior invert walls and base and then pour a second slab with the tubing imbedded in it.  That could bring the slab within 325mm around 13" from the bottom of the floor. 

   Still hope to use the Eco-cute unit even if the off-peak rates do not apply.  (The only data I saw on the HE-46D1QRAPS by Panasonic concerning COP of 4.8; 6.0kW/1.24kkW, a second
   rating- 6.0kW/2.00Kw, and finally 6.0kW/1.16kw--I do not understand the kanji (written Japanese characters) and the differences.  (I do not have a complete brochure--only a copy)

   The usage would still be about 1/3 compared to direct resistance and we would not be penalized by high rates during the peak times.  
   Thank you again.
   If you wondered what "yuka-atatakai" is: it means "floor-warm", I do not know if the spelling is right though.

   
   
    
   

   
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12 Apr 2010 11:14 AM
that would be pretty damn good COPs for any heat pump, never mind high temp ones.

that tech sure is interesting. we have a low temp air to water here in our shop by daikin right now... hasn't been stress tested yet... sure is interesting to see where things are going.
Rockport Mechanical<br>RockportMechanical.com
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