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Air source heat pump boiler
Last Post 24 Oct 2013 07:45 PM by arcamm. 47 Replies.
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ICFHybrid
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 Posts:3039
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| 06 Jan 2011 01:07 AM |
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We've had it down to -11C with no loss in house temperature so far (which would mean we're achieving less than 30kBTU/h heat loss heating 6300sqft of conditioned space). I'm wondering if you had any heat loss studies run on the home design before building, what they indicated and how it matches up with what you know from those preliminary numbers. I have 5900 ft2 and three separate studies which indicated 62kBTU/hr, 68kBTU/hr and 75kBTU/hr of loss. Of course, all those studies were done by HVAC entities who wanted to sell a system to match (and maybe even a little bigger "just to make sure"). The solar wonks (with better software) came up with about 52kBTU/hr with an additional 14-17kBTU/hr off that from passive solar inputs. -11C would be on the low end for our mild climate which we hope will put (and keep) us right in the acceptable COP range for that Daikin unit. The other bad assumption we made was that the backup heat can heat the loop for the hot water tank, when in fact it can only heat for space heating. We know that at some point during cold weather peaks, that both the backup heating resistance element and the hot water tank elements in our system will need to run, and the kilowatts will really fly, but those periods are relatively rare and short here, which is why we chose the Daikin unit. I'm sure these units are designed to generally go on smaller places, particularly where the heating needs are greater. but that also means my domestic hot water can only be set to 45C/113F or lower if I am trying to avoid electric booster heat Hmmm... my plan is to (solar) preheat the water destined for the hot water tank. Does the system allow a separate entrance or must it pass through the heating system first? |
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BadgerBoilerMN
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2010
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| 06 Jan 2011 10:01 AM |
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Just curious. If electricity costs 3x NG and you anticipate a COP of 2+COP, and, you expect to use resistance electrical element for backup...what are the benefits of a heat pump? |
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NRT.Rob
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1741
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| 06 Jan 2011 10:03 AM |
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Thanks for the link Victor. Believe it or not, I was looking at the output for the small unit instead of the large unit. *smacks forehead*. the chart is the same as the one I have. the manual is great to have though, thanks again. We skipped the DHW tank entirely because the integration is a PITA, the time to charge up the tank is loooooooong, and you're still doing a lot of the work with electric resistance, and I don't like their tank. I would much rather use a regular indirect with a separate boost heater sized for the particular DHW load I have, and just maintain the tank at, say, 100 degrees or 95 degrees. Do the "heavy lifting" ahead of time with the heat pump and top off with resistance. but, what can you do. |
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NRT.Rob
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1741
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| 06 Jan 2011 10:05 AM |
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COP should average a 3 for a season with the heat pump. so he's on parity with natural gas. the benefit is that in some regions you aren't burning much fossil fuel to get there, and/or you can supplement with renewable energy generation. |
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BadgerBoilerMN
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2010
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| 06 Jan 2011 10:16 AM |
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"Should" is not a engineering nor a banking term as I understand it. NG is cleaner than electricity (unless produced by Nuclear Power), more stable in price, and "supplementing" is seldom done with ROI in mind or quantifiable imagination. Integration is not exclusive to the Daikin or any other system. I own a mini-split (primarily for back-up heat and de-humidification) but could not justify the cost of technologies geared to cooling in this cold climate of Minnesota. If you are "burning" electricity, you burning coal, here in the Midwest, not to mention the 70% waste in production and transmission costs. Natural gas is a "fossil fuel" apart. |
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NRT.Rob
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1741
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| 06 Jan 2011 10:27 AM |
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really, you can't use the word "should" in engineering? really? "shouldn't" a modcon get over 92% efficiency? isn't it possible not to? Aren't there a wide variety of variables than can affect that, many of which an engineer or designer has no control over, such as the maintenance schedule? Your assumption that electricity is dirty does not hold true in all markets. In many areas of canada, where Victor is, large quantities of electricity are made via hydro. same for the pacific northwest. Net zero homes are not built for economic reasons. They are built to reduce impact, not save money. Here in maine you can use a heat pump to beat propane and oil operating costs (most of us don't have access to NG), but not by a ton if you do it air source. Ground/water source can blow them out of the water, but to recoup the initial costs you have to be servicing a very large load unless you have a "pump and dump" setup. |
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BadgerBoilerMN
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2010
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| 06 Jan 2011 10:35 AM |
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Perhaps. But back to the question: vkykam says he has NG and its cost is a third of electricity. Since Canadians produce more NG than they use, I am still curious. |
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vkykam
 New Member
 Posts:60
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| 06 Jan 2011 05:27 PM |
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@ICFHybrid/Heat Loss Calc - We did have heat loss calcs done by a designer that does not sell equipment. The problem was what R value to use for the ICF wall, the SIP walls, the EPS ceiling (that underhangs the trusses so no thermal bridging), the air infiltration, etc... For example, the 7" EPS ceiling, if we take R3.8/inch, only gets us R26.6, but field testing shows R60+ equivalent. Same for the ICF, if we take raw materials it only adds up to R25 or so, but field testing is closer to R38. We took a middle of the road approach and underestimated on the R values and we had a heat loss of 80kBTU/h @ -4F for building permit purposes. @ICFHybrid/Solar Preheat - You're in luck on this one. You can't preheat using solar for space heating, but you CAN heat domestic hot water with solar, as Daikin has a solar kit for their domestic hot water tanks which adds a heat exchanger to the mix for the solar thermal. They don't sell the solar thermal panels. YET. (They've acquired a panel company, so expect it to be availalbe this year) @BadgerBoilerMN/NG vs Heat Pump - The benefits of the heat pump is that you're off fossil fuel, and potentially on renewable energy. Electricity can be dirty if it's coal fired (and we have a few of those here in Ontario), but it can be nuclear (we have those), or hydroelectric (we have those too), or renewables such as solar (we've got 30kW on our roof), both of which are far cleaner (debatable on the nuclear). Keep in mind it's COP of 2 @ -4F; it's COP 3+ @ 32F, so throughout the heating season we're expecting a COP of 3 or higher. And because of the NG backup that we have, if we wanted dollar efficiency we can set the NG to kick in around 32F instead of 10F, but we chose the lower value to stay on heat pump as long as we could as part of our quest towards net-zero energy. In our case, we have the flexibility of choice, whether we want energy efficiency or dollar efficiency. Also, electricity being 3X NG costs is also variable; in our case it's actually higher, with it about 3.5X during low periods and about 5X during peak time-of-day rates, but that is also based on the very low NG prices now, which is 60% off the highs of a few years ago. With oil back close to $100/barrel, NG is bound to follow sooner or later, and my guess is that NG will rise to the point where electricity might be 2X NG costs. The final bit here is that I've included all the delivery charges in my calculation, so each jurisdiction will vary, and in our case we have silly debt retirement charges and such that is part of the electricity rates that it becomes fairly inflated. @BadgerBoilerMN/NG Pricing - NG pricing is most certainly not more stable than electricity. Just look at the price variation of NG on the spot market over the past 10 years. Here's a chart: http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/NG/M@NRT.Bob/Net Zero - We are striving for both economic and ecological impacts. We're very cash flow positive with much thanks to the feed-in tariff that the Province of Ontario has introduced for solar power. But even without that, we've built in such a way that we're very close to cash flow neutral on the energy efficiency upgrades (factoring out the solar), within a typical 25 year Canadian mortgage. All it would have meant was that we would run NG a bit more in the colder weather, but in reality the difference in operating costs isn't much between heat pump and NG when you're dealing with 30kBTU/h heat loss. The ECObuilthome.ca represents ECOnomical and ECOlogical, or at least that's our philosophy. Victor www.ecobuilthome.ca |
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ICFHybrid
 Veteran Member
 Posts:3039
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| 06 Jan 2011 11:53 PM |
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Same for the ICF, if we take raw materials it only adds up to R25 or so, but field testing is closer to R38. Well, the industry supporters will like to hear that. The engineers used a value of R26 for our 11.75" ICF walls and felt that was a low number. We modeled 6" standard walls incorporating 2" of 2 pcf polyurethane foam to seal and batts to fill the remaining space both with and without 1" EPS sheeting (thermal break) and the difference came back so small, we decided to dispense with the sheeting. Propane here is $2.20/USG with electricity at less than $0.10/kW. That makes electricity a bit more expensive at an equivalent of about $2.75/USG, but the electricity is nearly all hydroelectric and I have serious concerns about the future availability and price of propane. Pluswhich I can generate electricity with PV panels or a wind turbine or via biodiesel fueled generators. Making propane would be daunting. Interestingly enough, during the course of this conversation I went to finalize my Daikin purchase plans only to discover that Geo was a more viable alternative than I had previously realized. We are now re-evaluating the air sourced heat pump plan. If I didn't have the room to put in the pipe field, the Daikin unit would still have been the best plan. Of course, an additional $10,000 savings through the Geo tax credit doesn't hurt the picture either. |
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NRT.Rob
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1741
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| 07 Jan 2011 09:01 AM |
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You cannot use "field testing" r value equivalents for tight walls for a heat load calculation. A proper heat load calculation uses the straight R value ONLY, and factors for infiltration separately, which is a big part of the benefit of ICF or SIP walls. NO fudging upward for "better R value equivalence", that's a myth and is salesman shorthand for improvements to infiltration not reflected in R-value. For mass effect, that is not an R-value increase. The true effect, as I understand it, is to moderate temperature swings, and this would properly show up in a load calc only as a change in the outdoor design temperature, at best. And I don't know of any models that can properly take that into account for a peak load calculation. for YEARLY ENERGY USAGE, you might do other things, but not for peak load calcs.
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vkykam
 New Member
 Posts:60
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| 07 Jan 2011 10:47 PM |
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I agree that you can't use the field test R-value for heat loss calcs as it includes the infiltration improvements, but you can fudge it upwards because of the reduced thermal bridging. In the ICF, there's no studs, just plastic straps in the forms. In SIP, it's reduced from every 16" to every 48". In the Nudura ceiling, we've eliminated the thermal bridging all together. That is why we took a middle-of-the-road approach, and used R30 for the ICF, and R38 for the ceiling, as opposed to the field-test R38 for ICF and R60+ for the ceiling. In the end, it looks like we'll be only about 1/2 of the heat loss calc at design temp, which means the materials are performing better than we had anticipated, as the air infiltration can't account for the entire difference.
Totally agree on the thermal mass. As much as I am a fan of ICF, I think the thermal mass effect is overrated, particularly for a colder climate that we're both in. And after this project I'm more a fan of SIP than ICF from a performance perspective, at least in a heating climate.
One of the oddities we discovered was a direct comparison of performance between ICF and SIP. We had a straight section of wall that on one section was ICF and on the other SIP (because there was no bearing underneath). Same exposure, same level, in an open area, so there's no difference in room temperature nor in exterior wall ambient temperature. On the ICF, we had 6" concrete plus 2 5/8" EPS on the inside, and 3 5/8" on the outside as we added 1" for stucco purposes. For the SIP, it was 8 1/4" panel (7 1/4" EPS) plus an additional 3" EPS on the outside to make it flush with the ICF wall. When we took a temperature gun to the wall, we found the SIP wall was consistently 0.5C to 0.7C higher. Granted, there's far more insulation in the SIP wall (10 1/4" vs 6 1/4"), but the thermal mass behind the wall is being outperformed by the SIP. My conclusion at this point is that thermal mass is great if it's exposed on the inside of the house and in an area exposed to the winter sun where it can heat soak during a sunny day, but I question the benefits as an ICF structure. When you factor in that the cost of the SIP is 2/3 of ICF costs installed at the above listed thicknesses, in my book, the SIP is the clear winner for above grade applications.
Victor www.ecobuilthome.ca
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NRT.Rob
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1741
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| 08 Jan 2011 10:49 AM |
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No, thermal bridging REDUCES the R-value of a stud wall. You can't INCREASE the R-value of a breakless wall. Again, it's salesman shorthand: "this wall performs like an R-23 Fiberglass". Ok, if you derate the fiberglass for thermal bridging, maybe that would be true, but that doesn't mean you can calculate your heat load at an R23, it just means the "R23 fiberglass wall" should have de-rated their numbers for accuracy. Your air infiltration calc could still be wildly high. We use a 0.2 ACH for supertight homes with air exchange. What are you using? I think the major argument for ICF is durability, and it has less seams than SIPs do. We used the "REMOTE wall system" from the CCHRC up in alaska which is basically a site built open face SIP with multiple seam staggers and we're very happy with its performance.... just bumped our Altherma up to the low 80's for water temperature yesterday after heating adequately all season so far with 77 degree F water! |
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vkykam
 New Member
 Posts:60
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| 08 Jan 2011 11:43 PM |
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Thermal bridging, as in a typical 16" OC wall, reduces the R-Value. When you take the EPS R-Value of R3.8/inch, the benefits of thermal bridging is not factored in, and that is why I suggested that the R-values can be goosed up when you're doing the heat loss calculations. The problem here is that the heat loss software doesn't factor the thermal bridging. As an example, if I'm framing an exterior 2x6 wall using cellulose (R3.8/inch x 5"), I punch in R19 in the software. If I use 5" of EPS in a SIP wall, I also punch in R19 in the softwaer (R3.8/inch). But, the EPS wall will perform better as an overall assembly even if we ignore the infiltration, because there is less thermal conductivity since there are less studs. So for heat loss calc purposes, IMHO, you can use a value higher than R19. Not MUCH higher and certainly not the R-values that the manufacturer will have one believe. What that value is, is anyone's guess. Just dug out my heat loss calcs, and here were some of the values we used: Windows - as per manufacturer ICF - R24 (so it appears we used the materials sum) Ceiling - R42 (as opposed to materials sum of R27) 8" SIP - R24 (we originally planned 6 1/4" panels = 5 1/4" EPS = R19 but ended up using 8 1/4" panels = 7 1/4" EPS = R28) Infiltration was set to "Average" in Wrightsoft, but that was because of the City's request for permitting. Total infiltration loss was 25035BTU/h. Total heat loss from Wrightsoft was 79505BTU/h. So, even if we took out all of the infiltration loss, we're still at 55kBTU/h. We've overestimated the ceiling EPS from materials sum by R15, totalling 3000+ sqft, and we've underestimated the SIP sections by R4, totalling about 1000 sqft. That certainly does not explain the difference of what we're experiencing, which is around 30kBTU @ 10F (max Altherma output based on that temp), and at design temp of -4F it should extrapolate to less than 40kBTU, well below the 55kBTU assuming perfect house sealing. For clarification, ventilation loss was calculated separately and not included in the infiltration loss but included in the 79kBTU/h whole house loss. IMHO, you CAN use higher R values than basic materials sum (by using simple thickness of materials times known R-value of that material), but be very careful about how agressive a value to use. Rob, what ambient temperature are you working with, that you can run 77F water? Is this all radiant in-floor without a fan coil? Victor www.ecobuilthome.ca
A 4350 sqft Net Zero Energy inititative |
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BadgerBoilerMN
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2010
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| 09 Jan 2011 12:41 PM |
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The software program I use when designing systems or sizing boilers accounts for thermal bridging among other things |
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NRT.Rob
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1741
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| 10 Jan 2011 09:05 AM |
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We are running wamboard or radiant ceiling (alternating for comfort testing) and a slab level. we had to bump up to low 80's as the outdoor temps hit the mid teens. our outdoor design temp is -4 degree F and I expect to need no more than 90 deg F water under those conditions. I will note again you are fudging in the wrong direction. Just because your heat load calculation software can't calculate bridging doesn't mean you can fudge no bridge walls UP. You need to fudge Bridged walls DOWN. That's just really bad math. Fiberglass being a crappy way to insulate doesn't improve your ICF capabilities. Of course, your infiltration calc will be so overestimated in this case what you do with wall R won't matter and, frankly, the bridging effect in most normal walls won't shift a peak load calc by enough to be concerned with in most cases. The only way you could "fudge up" is if your load calculation automatically assumes a bridge factor, but most I've seen don't do that. You are supposed to do a real wall R-value, not just the cavity insulation. That said, I usually do just use the cavity insulation because by the time you factor in additional layers and air film, the difference is only a couple R which won't affect much. the real money is in the infiltration estimate. I would imagine you are seeing something like the heavy overestimation of your infiltration coupled with passive solar gain energy reduction here. but I'm guessing, of course. Not to be insulting, but you are using pretty bad methodology here. |
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BadgerBoilerMN
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2010
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| 10 Jan 2011 10:29 AM |
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Why did you use "average" in the Wrightsoft program again? Wrightsoft does account for thermal bridging. |
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vkykam
 New Member
 Posts:60
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| 10 Jan 2011 11:27 AM |
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@Rob/Heat Loss Calc - I think ultimately it depends on the software that you use. If the software factors in thermal bridging, then you'd fudge upwards the R value of SIP/ICF/whatever. If the software doesn't factor in thermal bridging, then you wouldn't fudge for ICF, and you'd fudge down a framed wall (more so for traditional framed, less so for SIP). I know what you're getting at, but depending on the software, sometimes you have to "fool" the software. For typical 2X framed wall, the wood would represent well more than 10% of the conductivity area, so it would make a material difference in the heat load calcs, and with R1/inch for wood and R3.8 +/- per inch for EPS/Cellulose, it can be enough to make equipment sizing matter. I do agree the infiltration estimate is overblown, but the infiltration numbers off the heat loss calcs, even in its entirety, doesn't offset the difference we are seeing in the real world, so there must be another factor at play.
@Rob/Passive Solar - The passive solar is helping significantly, and we're very fortunate to be in an area where smart meters were mandated, and our local utility gives access to hourly usage of hydro, that we can compare against weather station hourly statistics for sun and temperature, and since we're currently still in construction and haven't moved in yet, we've been able to get decent statistics for heat loss alone, not factoring in BTU gains from equipment and activities like computers and cooking, and the body heat that contributes. All that being said, the passive solar isn't accounting the whole story, because we can look at night time statistics where temperature is coldest and heat loss is greater, with no passive solar effect. We don't have much surface mass inside (no concrete or slate floors) that can help retain heat; the sun is basically hitting cork floors and drywall, so the carry-over effect isn't very pronounced. Some of the initial numbers I'm looking at is hinting the passive solar gains are signifcant during the day (cutting heating demands by 1/4 to 1/2 @ 20F weather) but that the carry-over fizzles out about 3-4 hours after sunset, i.e. around 8-9pm the electricity usage climbs up to a point where it's fairly steady after that throughout the night. Where I'm basing my claims of the variance of the heat loss calc to actual is in the morning the house is maintaining the set indoor temperature, where it has gone through the coldest temperature and where the solar gains have been "used up", and the BTU output of the Altherma can be correlated by the loop temp and the overnight outdoor ambient temperature.
@Rob/Methodology - I'm pretty much a laymen here, my background is not from construction, so do correct me where you see fit; I'm here to learn. Not enough knowledge to be an expert, just enough knowledge to be dangerous. 
@BadgerBoilerMN/Infiltration - I think that was changed to average after a conversation between my designer and the Town's plan examiner. The original heat loss calc was done with tight, but it was changed by the time we revised it after the Town had issues with our heat loss calc. Likely they're not buying into the tightness of the house, as I recalled I had to sign off personally on a letter for the windows I'm using for them to allow the high window R value. The one thing we constantly ran into was the Town throwing things back at us because they haven't seen it before, so everything needed an Ontario Minister's Ruling (in order to use the product) or engineer's stamp. Stucco TAFS was a perfect example, where products existed for TAFS directly on ICF, and where the town insisted we put another inch of EPS with a drainage plane behind the EPS like an EIFS install, even though there's no wood behind it. In the end it was many thousands of dollars later for us to bring an engineer out many times to inspect during the application so they can sign off on the install. In hindsight I should have just added the layer, since the engineer's cost was almost as much as the extra layer of EPS. SIPs were another example, where we were very limited in the choice of manufacturers; there's very few manufacturers that do have an approval for use in this wonderful province of ours.
@BadgerBoilerMN/Wrightsoft - That's what my designer used, and I'm pulling numbers there. I had used some online heat loss calculators (such as the one at builditsolar.com), since I don't have a license for it.
Victor www.ecobuilthome.ca A 4350 sqft Net Zero Energy inititative |
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ICFHybrid
 Veteran Member
 Posts:3039
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| 10 Jan 2011 11:34 AM |
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Wow. I've spent an inordinate amount of time trying to follow the points in this thread and I've come to the conclusion that terminology continues to be a barrier to implementation of improved building systems. In particular, it's hard to pin down the concept of "R-value" as evidenced here. And, I've been in the planning stage for 9 months now. I'm sure it is particularly difficult for someone just starting out who thinks they might want to try some of these newer technologies. Early on, I was trying to interview some ICF-qualified subcontractors. It turned out that this one felt qualified because he had seen an ICF build once. His goal was to get the job by turning the client back to the same construction he had always used. HIM: So, why do you want ICF anyway? ME: Well, to start with it's R-23.... HIM: That's nothing. Our standard construction beats that and I can do it for half the price. ME: (confused) How do you figure? HIM: We build a 2X6 wall and the insulation that goes in it says "R-19" right on it. Add the wallboard and sheathing and siding and you're way over R-23... I'm aware of laboratory work in thermal testing with varying types of construction panels on a small scale, but does anyone know of controlled testing on assemblies the size of a room or better? Seems like a combination of public and private monies could fund research that could clear up some of these issues. On the other hand, maybe there are influences that have an ongoing interest in muddying the waters. I'm struggling with the strategy of bumping the R-value up to R-60 for 7" or 8" of thickness because infiltration is near zero and there is no thermal bridging. @vkykam - Does your modelling system account for the situation in which the insulated ceiling is exposed to a "semi-conditioned space" under the roof? |
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NRT.Rob
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1741
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| 10 Jan 2011 11:59 AM |
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Victor, as long as you understand when to fudge up and when to fudge down, so be it. your previous posts made it sound like you just fudged up on the ICF without further regard for the software, but it sounds like you do in fact know what you're doing... I retract my statement! |
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BadgerBoilerMN
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2010
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| 10 Jan 2011 12:20 PM |
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The only barrier in terminology is between the misinformed and the informed. All the terms Rob has used are accepted on by ICC codes. For example: There is no such thing as ["semi-conditioned space" under the roof?] Much time and money can be saved by finding an experienced HVAC designer before starting a new building project. Junk science is common in the field when salesman get involved. Since nearly 50% of all HVAC equipment is over-sized, fretting over "bridging" is a bit over-kill for residential applications. With the Wrightsoft "infiltration" set at "average", the whole heat load is of little value. Online heat load programs of little use to the novice or professional. |
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