Doing a reno on my house and hopefully was looking for a little help.  I'm switching hot water rads over to radiant heating.  Because it is an old house with baloon framing and such, I can't support the weight of concrete or normal covering of the tubing so this was my plan.  Over existing plywood subfloor, lay the tubing inside aluminum heat plates and have them between strips of plywood.  I would then lay my engineered hardwood over this.  Is this my best bet?

Also, it seems everyone has their own way to design system and wanted to go over mine.  I was kind of talked into doing it like in the following link:
http://www.mvsupply.biz/hrh_multiple_zone_schematic.htm.  Does this look ok to do it this way and again, is this my best bet?  I'm going to have 2 zones, 1 for each floor.  Two 6 branch manifolds, with taco 3 zone switching relay incase I add another zone later.  I would really appreciate any help all the pros can offer.

James

sandwitch system is a good choice, we offer this system as do others, have a look at our step by step, may answer questions, it is a very efficent way to go, works exelent with condensing boilers due to low delivered water temp on loop. The MVS design is a bit over built.
Dan
Link; RHT Floor Panel system http://www.blueridgecompany.com/documents/panel.pdf

sandwitch system is a good choice, we offer this system as do others, have a look at our step by step, may answer questions, it is a very efficent way to go, works exelent with condensing boilers due to low delivered water temp on loop. The MVS design is a bit over built.
Dan
Link; RHT Floor Panel system http://www.blueridgecompany.com/documents/panel.pdf

Overbuilt, heh. That is a hack design. fixed temp bang-bang "TVS" mixing is not what you want. You also want to stick with a single pump unless it's just not possible to avoid wasting money now and for the life of the system on wasted electricity.

Outdoor reset is a must for nearly any system. the only question is whether it is/should be on the boiler, or on the mixing device, which depends on the kind of boiler you are going to use.

Thanks for the replies guys.  Rob, do you offer a design service?  Where i'm from none of the stores stock anything, and most can't get it, or only want to get a certain product they push, and none seem to know anything about it.  I'll get the model and specs on my existing boiler and post some more specs here.  I've been reading all I can for the last 2 months and like I said, everyone has a different way it seems, or are pushing their products.  Glad I found this place.  I'd love to be able to just get a design and parts list and order and have it installed or do it myself.  Appreciate any help

we do. Free evaluations as well. all info is on the website. just be aware "design" means more than rule of thumb tubing layouts. it's not free. If it's free, it's not design.

If its free its not design????
BS, We spend considerable time assisting countless people, contractors and home owners alike with design.
Free. You do not always need an expensive heat loss, super analysis. There are many ways to do a excellent system.
We can provide heat loss as well. We charge for that.
Ego down a notch
Dan

again, if it's free it's not design.

you can't do design without a heat loss. all you can do is ballpark.

Should I put what I need on here or do it privately? I'll put it here and if need be, i'll edit it. Basically I have 3 bedrooms on 2nd floor 100sq', a hallway 100sq', a bath 100sq', another 250sq' bedroom addition on side of house, and the attic space which is loft idea of addition whichi is 400sq'. House is basic 4 square 20x20 plus addition on side. Main floor is living room 250sq', kitchen/dining 150 sq', part of original four square, then addition den which is 250 sq' and main bath addition 250 sq'. If possible, and exact parts list with diagram is what I ultimately need, tubing design would be great, but I think I have fair grasp and may have someone to help. I don't mind paying if need be, but any free help is definitely appreciated.

My boiler is listed at the following links:
http://www.olsenhvac.com/products_gasboilers_omgb.asp
http://www.ductless.ca/boilers/olsen.html

It is the OMGB 100HD
BTU input 100,000
Net IBR Rating (Btu/hr) 77,000
Heating Capacity (Btu/h 83,000
AFUE 83%

That boiler is three to five times too big for the house you are describing. your final plan should address that.

How can I address that?  Its the boiler thats there, I can't change it right now.  Can someone help me design system?

Rob,
How do you know that with out the heat loss, could be its a yurt?
we see a fair amount of yurts out here in the wild wild west.......
could there be a domestic side arm tank in there?
Dan

You can be flip all you like Dan, but you forget, I actually know exactly what you can and cannot do without a heat loss. You can't bamboozle me.

All you can do is mediocre systems if you don't run the numbers. Once in awhile you can get lucky. There is a market for mediocre, that's fine: but it's not "design". It's just rule of thumb guidance. Your site claims "free radiant design". That's a lie. You offer free tubing layouts based on.... apparently nothing but rules of thumb, if you aren't doing a heat load calc. That's not design.

If you charge for load calcs, then you charge for design. If you don't do load calcs, then whatever you are doing is not "Radiant design". You might argue the lawyerese of it, squint at it a certain way and you can call it 'design', but it's not.

Do you what you will, it's fine by me. Just don't call it design unless you're, you know, actually designing the system. That's all I ask. Even Radiantec has the decency to note that what they are doing isn't design.

Rob,
We are real clear about what we offer in our design. yes design.
We do not Bamboozle any one. We have supplied thousands of systems to a fleet of happy clients. They have done the work themselves, are professional contractors, Builders, housing authorities and home owners, and yes some need assistance. We design for them boiler rooms, pump system needs, loop length, lay out, and on. Design Rob.
We do work on base averages, we do have option to do exact heat loss when asked, we do get clients in to affordable radiant heat, workable plans, High efficiency systems. No monkey grease, no Bamboozle (what a word). Just heat systems with out the lofty price tags.
Are our the apex of design, the edge of cutting radiant, likely not. Can normal Joe put one in for a 1/2 the cost the local prices may support, yes. Are they happy when done, yes.
On ward,
Dan

What you give for free is not design.

I didn't say you can't do design, or that behind the scenes you aren't more clear about what you provide and what it costs. But what you do for free isn't design, and it's right there on your front page that radiant design is free. Charitably you could say it may tend to overstate the case. More honestly, you could say it's a lie.

Also there is nothing high efficiency about "base averages". We have a whole country full of heating systems installed with "rules of thumb" and "base averages" running between 50% and 75% efficiency because of poor matches between equipment and system. It's pretty irresponsible for anyone considering themselves a professional of any kind of promote it except in very well defined situations (slab garages, etc). throwing a modulating boiler at a problem doesn't make it efficient. just lighter.

Rob
......
I knew it before I started.
I have been selling and installing good radiant systems 25 years now. Did not just fall off the RPA truck.
Best regards,
Dan

Nice. the "I've been doing it this way for twenty years" argument. Maine's got piles of systems like that MVS system in it with that same argument behind them. I'm sure they would say their clients are "happy" too. Not calling up complaining, must be good!

Is anything of value really free?

Naturally no one can exist working for nothing. The cost of design is either charged up front, built into the cost of the goods or left out. The novice is hard pressed to figure out which of the last two are the facts.

I tell my clients to eliminate potential contractors that do not produce a heat load analysis when replacing an old boiler. Radiant heating systems can be very much more demanding.

General advice and design are different. I often get involved after the goods are bought and unfortunately sometimes after they are installed.

This is a very narrow discipline and since hydronics represents less than 2% of all residential heating systems, (much less in most non-urban areas) experience is hard to come buy. So it makes sense to have an experienced designer do a professional software-generated heat load before you spend money. It is only with an accurate heat load that a heating system can be specified and designed with the accuracy that it deserves.

Having started as a plumbing and heating contractor, founded the first nationwide hydronic radiant distribution company (sold to the trades exclusively) and installed, distributed and manufactured the first US built condensing boilers, I can say with some confidence that people design around their stock, i.e. what they have in the warehouse. There is nothing wrong with this as these folks tend to know, and better support, the products they sell.

Both of my esteemed colleagues have an argument (in fact they often do).

Having come from the poorest county in the state of Wisconsin and now living in one of the wealthiest in Minnesota I have been of both minds.

To Dan's argument; many simply can't afford the level of attention that I believe Rob affords his customers (at a price). On the other hand Dan provides a service (we might call it advice instead of design) that puts the man of modest means in a better place than he might have been with the local handyman or sifting through one of Siggy's overwhelming texts on his own.

It is a fine line between salesmanship and complete candor, but this is the nature of the free enterprise system. Each must be responsible for himself. I think most adults get what they deserve (or what they can afford).

DIY design on the other hand, is always the first mistake.

Since I also design systems (using Rob's formal definition) and rarely sell anything (outside of my local Twin Cities market) I am personally beyond reproach...hehehehee.

again I will note I don't have any problem with "non design" that doesn't claim to be design, on a moral level. I do think most people.. not all, but the vast majority... would get better results having a "lesser" (radiator, baseboard, etc) system designed than going for a radiant system "shooting from the hip" in terms of both comfort and long term costs, but the market is wide and it takes all kinds. No problem there. Have differences, but no problems.

I do have a problem with false claims. "Design" is not a legally defined term in this respect, so they can use it however they like, but I do think it's shady and it certainly sends an incorrect message about what it takes to really design something, rather than thumbing it out there and calling it good. It pretends to something it does not deliver. Surety of performance. that's simply not possible, as you know, without running numbers except in very, very simple systems.. basement slabs and shops, maybe.