GuyB
 New Member
 Posts:52
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| 09 Feb 2011 03:02 PM |
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Will radiant snow melt work when the driveway is covered with stone pavers?
The driveway I am thinking of would be 6" reinforced concrete slab over insulation. Full size cobbles are adhered to the slab using a standard mortar. The cobbles are split granite 6"Wx10"Lx2"D.
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BadgerBoilerMN
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2010
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| 09 Feb 2011 07:18 PM |
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Yes. I design for pavers all the time, though you don't need the concrete. I design driveway snow melting systems and specify the whole system from sub-soil to controls. |
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warmsmeallup
 Basic Member
 Posts:131

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| 13 Feb 2011 08:02 PM |
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Yes, you can do it will hydronics, line voltage or low voltage systems, though hydronics require a lot of maintenance. |
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| <a href="http://www.comfortradiant.com" target="_blank">COMFORT RADIANT HEATING, LLC</a><br> <a href="http://www.comfortradiant.com/zmeshinterior.php" target="_blank">Floor Warming</a><br><a href="http://www.comfortradiant.com/roof-deicing.php" target="_blank">Roof De-Icing</a><br><a href="http://www.comfortradiant.com/snow-melting.php" target="_blank">Snow Melting</a> |
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BadgerBoilerMN
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2010
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| 14 Feb 2011 10:59 AM |
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The you go again. I design, install and maintain both and find the maintenance on the most sophisticated gas-fired snow melting systems minimal. They simply don't operate much. The most used, those on the slopes for instance, require annual maintenance, but even here in sunny Minnesota I have serviced gas-fired snow melting systems that were installed in the 70's that enjoyed nearly zero service (I don't recommend it) and still going strong. The reason the vast majority of snow/ice melting systems are anything but electricity is because electricity almost always costs more to "burn" than fossil fuels. Here in Minneapolis natural gas it 1/3 the cost of electricity and thus the majority of my snow melting designs include condensing gas-fired boilers and full automation. |
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warmsmeallup
 Basic Member
 Posts:131

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| 14 Feb 2011 05:38 PM |
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I have no problem with hydronic snow melting. It has it's place. Apparently, you think it's the only choice. Since you brought it up, electric has NO maintenance, no glycol / water mix to maintain, no boiler to maintain and only costs when it's snowing. On the automated systems, how does the boiler know when to turn on to heat the water in time to work? How much does it cost to keep the water hot even when it's not snowing? http://www.comfortradiant.com/gallery_under_pavers2.php |
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| <a href="http://www.comfortradiant.com" target="_blank">COMFORT RADIANT HEATING, LLC</a><br> <a href="http://www.comfortradiant.com/zmeshinterior.php" target="_blank">Floor Warming</a><br><a href="http://www.comfortradiant.com/roof-deicing.php" target="_blank">Roof De-Icing</a><br><a href="http://www.comfortradiant.com/snow-melting.php" target="_blank">Snow Melting</a> |
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BadgerBoilerMN
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2010
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| 15 Feb 2011 05:42 PM |
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Obviously I don't have a problem with electricity, it is the cable that bothers me. If you bury cable in a snow melting driveway or walk, you can't change your mind. With the price of electricity going up faster in more places than the price of other fuels (not surprising since we mostly burn one thing to make another) most people want to keep their options open. With tubing placed in a slab, the snow melting system can be driven by any boiler, using any fuel available, including electricity. The way a snow melting system operates does not very with the distribution system. The controls are identical in function if not in fact. The maintenance argument is old, worn and specious at best, since spending hundreds or even thousands more for fuel to "save" on maintenance, makes no more sense to my customers than it does to me. The fact is, most snow melting systems operate a fraction of the time that a normal space-heating boiler operates. Maintenance is simply not an issue. Conversely, once you bury the cable you use electricity or your shovel... http://www.badgerboilerservice.com/snowmelt.html
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warmsmeallup
 Basic Member
 Posts:131

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| 15 Feb 2011 07:34 PM |
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Choice?? You mean, electric went up $0.01 per kilowatt hour this year and I want to switch my electric boiler to oil ...but then oil goes up $2.00/gallon and I want to switch back...yeah! Got it. Not only is that unrealistic but that's used car sales shtick. Just how much is that option to utilize...back and forth? How many of your clients have taken that option? Snow melting doesn't need maintenance??...the glycol mix doesn't need yearly monitoring? The burners don't get dirty? The valves, pumps and solenoids don't ever have issues and there are no maintenance contracts...EVER? Wow, you build miraculous systems! They never leak their glycol either, right?
I will put the running costs of an automatic low voltage system up against an automatic hydronic system any season. Unless you are a contractor who knows how to turn on and off the boiler and when to turn it on and off, it has to keep the water/glycol mix hot waiting for snow. That's as blatant a waste of energy as baseboard electric and you know it. |
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| <a href="http://www.comfortradiant.com" target="_blank">COMFORT RADIANT HEATING, LLC</a><br> <a href="http://www.comfortradiant.com/zmeshinterior.php" target="_blank">Floor Warming</a><br><a href="http://www.comfortradiant.com/roof-deicing.php" target="_blank">Roof De-Icing</a><br><a href="http://www.comfortradiant.com/snow-melting.php" target="_blank">Snow Melting</a> |
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BadgerBoilerMN
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2010
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| 15 Feb 2011 08:07 PM |
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You are clearly confused.
The boiler sits idle until the snow/ice sensor detects water below freezing. I use the same sensor for both cable and tube/hydronic snowmelting systems. The boiler doesn't "keep" anything hot. It uses no more energy than a full control cable system.
It just so happens I am a licensed contractor, certified designer and service agent for various snow melting systems. All of my systems work with some degree of automation from on/off to full sensing, melting and full shutdown.
The only logical reason to put cable in a slab for snow melting is because it is cheaper to install (provided you have the extra couple hundred amps in your existing service). If the math works you, it's all good. I can tell you from designing snow melting systems for driveways and walks all over North America, it rarely makes sense. I used PEX tubing, glycol and an electric boiler on one of my own properties and dual fuel will be an option when the "off-peak" becomes "peak".
Perhaps you should stick to bathroom remodels? |
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