Warmboard or under sub floor plates
Last Post 29 Apr 2021 11:28 AM by newbostonconst. 33 Replies.
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NashvegasUser is Offline
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13 Feb 2017 09:54 AM
Parahomes, I think you are missing some key points. The purpose of plywood in Warmboard and RHT systems is simply a structural element of support for the aluminum skin. It is not used as a thermal storage, so why are you talking about the TC or sp. ht. of it? You keep talking about voids and delamination which will have nothing to do with the performance of the aluminum as a radiant emitter. The use of a continuous aluminum emitter over an entire surface is grossly faster acting and an more efficient method than aluminum or pex tubes spaced on a periodic pattern due to the vastly increased surface area and the extremely high TC (300 times more than its closest competitor on your list) as I am sure you know. The use of thermal mass systems, while effective in their own right can never be fast acting to changes in temperature required and seasonal fluctuations.

The use of aluminum or copper tubes has serious other practical issues, mostly notably corrosion as owners of antiquated copper-in-slab systems can certainly attest to. And aluminum only compounds the problem, requiring careful monitoring and maintenance of the fluid used. And then there is the mechancial issue of making your splices and connections with aluminum. Not for the faint of heart for the average person, although I did it 40 years ago on a solar system using a carbon torch and aluminum rod.

Para, you have a knack for trashing anything you haven't worked with personally throughout this site, based on your engineering "expertise" just like you have here with Warmboard and RHT, without any personal experience with the products. I would expect that both companies have engineers on staff that worked on the design of the product, and even if not, the extensive use of both must have created sufficient customer satisfaction to make them successful companies they are. While I have decided against using radiant in my build because it wasn't cost effective (due to very low heat loads/sq.ft.) (and yes, before you trash me as being an ignorant idiot as you so often do to people, I am an engineer with 30 years of PRACTICAL heat transfer experience in the industrial marketplace), I have seen Warmboard systems and the owners are very pleased operations of the systems as I would expect RHT owners to be because of the similarities of base theory. Could the company improve the product to solve issues like ronmar had, yes they should. And bringing the price down would help as well, but I don't know their manufacturing system and costs. Improvements like those would increase their marketability and business.
So, before you read about a product on a website, and launch into tirade about everything wrong you envision in the product, with absolutely no experience with it, you might do yourself a favor and try to learn what you can about it. I spent my career dealing with people who couldn't believe anything but shell and tube heat exchangers would ever work in any application, constantly picking out every excuse they could about the new alternatives, while the market for those have grown into a $20 billion industry that has increased manufacturing efficency tremendously.
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13 Feb 2017 09:58 AM
Posted By ChrisJ on 13 Feb 2017 09:30 AM
"Al or better copper tubing in properly designed hygro-thermal mass (certain hardwoods or cretes) will have a much higher COP/sustainability @ lower cost. "

So your saying we should be putting copper pipe in a radiant floor? Come on now!


I'm not going over the heat transfer specs again it's clear copper wins hands down w/400 btu/hr ft-F, PEX .250, AL 200. I suggest you buy the high priced gadgets. For the others we have been using 99.+% pure copper since the 40s. Lots of info on the internet points to what I already stated superior heat transfer. Formed AL 1100-O HT to T3 be another good choice depending on local prices. https://www.copper.org/consumers/copperhome/PHC/phc_heating.html
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13 Feb 2017 10:50 AM
Posted By Nashvegas on 13 Feb 2017 09:54 AM
Parahomes, I think you are missing some key points. The purpose of plywood in Warmboard and RHT systems is simply a structural element of support for the aluminum skin. It is not used as a thermal storage, so why are you talking about the TC or sp. ht. of it? You keep talking about voids and delamination which will have nothing to do with the performance of the aluminum as a radiant emitter. The use of a continuous aluminum emitter over an entire surface is grossly faster acting and an more efficient method than aluminum or pex tubes spaced on a periodic pattern due to the vastly increased surface area and the extremely high TC (300 times more than its closest competitor on your list) as I am sure you know. The use of thermal mass systems, while effective in their own right can never be fast acting to changes in temperature required and seasonal fluctuations.

The use of aluminum or copper tubes has serious other practical issues, mostly notably corrosion as owners of antiquated copper-in-slab systems can certainly attest to. And aluminum only compounds the problem, requiring careful monitoring and maintenance of the fluid used. And then there is the mechancial issue of making your splices and connections with aluminum. Not for the faint of heart for the average person, although I did it 40 years ago on a solar system using a carbon torch and aluminum rod.

Para, you have a knack for trashing anything you haven't worked with personally throughout this site, based on your engineering "expertise" just like you have here with Warmboard and RHT, without any personal experience with the products. I would expect that both companies have engineers on staff that worked on the design of the product, and even if not, the extensive use of both must have created sufficient customer satisfaction to make them successful companies they are. While I have decided against using radiant in my build because it wasn't cost effective (due to very low heat loads/sq.ft.) (and yes, before you trash me as being an ignorant idiot as you so often do to people, I am an engineer with 30 years of PRACTICAL heat transfer experience in the industrial marketplace), I have seen Warmboard systems and the owners are very pleased operations of the systems as I would expect RHT owners to be because of the similarities of base theory. Could the company improve the product to solve issues like ronmar had, yes they should. And bringing the price down would help as well, but I don't know their manufacturing system and costs. Improvements like those would increase their marketability and business.
So, before you read about a product on a website, and launch into tirade about everything wrong you envision in the product, with absolutely no experience with it, you might do yourself a favor and try to learn what you can about it. I spent my career dealing with people who couldn't believe anything but shell and tube heat exchangers would ever work in any application, constantly picking out every excuse they could about the new alternatives, while the market for those have grown into a $20 billion industry that has increased manufacturing efficency tremendously.

The first paragraph is a recap I what I already stated. The AL plate as I posted is 500x(not 3) more effective at TC than anything on "my list" (not mine BTW I didn't test the materials)... IF the high cost of the plates surface area as you seem to know for sure somehow is actually being used to transfer heat...In any case transferring from PEX is counter productive since it has low TC no customer satisfaction report will change. I think you missed that part and if you believe it is cost effective vs local plate and can show a pay back period lets see it? I don't think you understand bond line dellams and voids and have no MFG experience with them so I'm not going to waste my time.

Second paragraph: do some more research on 1XXX-0 corrosion. As a "Engineer" you should know it's non-corrosive no need to oxy film like pex it is used as ALCLAD on other AL alloys and steels as corrosion protection due to it's natural oxy film. It has lower mechanical properties so needs to be sized for burst pressure. PEX also corrodes and has galvanic reactions at fittings of dissimilar materials depending anode/cathode. I don't want to write a report on the other well known hazards of X-linked PEX.

Third paragraph" waste of my time you have no idea what experience I have with what. You do a good job at trashing too, I was merely looking at some alternatives thinking outside the box sorry it fried your brain :)
rgonyerUser is Offline
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13 Feb 2017 11:30 AM
Sooooooooo... back to the original question - Warmboard or heat transfer plates under the subfloor? Or maybe RHT- If I could find someone to install RHT for me quickly and the cost was still less than warmboard... I'd be interested in that. Ease of install was one of my reasons for going with Warmboard but if I can hire out RHT that would be even easier!
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13 Feb 2017 12:23 PM
RHT is the better choice. I'm not sure what this "specialized" plywood is I doubt improves the properties much I posted. You'll see a little of weight hit and wet properties compared to OSB no biggie. Some don't understand the time delayed thermal dry/wet losses to this base wood and the need to cover the entire floor with expensive AL, no it's not just structural support when wood is bonded to metal they act together, some AL alloys need none depending on gage and adding more gage is not that expensive especially if there is an extrusion die already made. Its true, the extrusion has better mechanical and thermal properties especially in the grain direction than sheet go with it. http://www.blueridgecompany.com/radiant/hydronic/769/rht-maxima-6-inch-extruded-heat-transfer-plates
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13 Feb 2017 05:34 PM
Back to the original question...any above floor approach is far better than doing below floor from an efficiency/performance perspective. We can confirm from personal experience that Warmboard performs very well and we would expect RHT to do so too.
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loghomebuilderUser is Offline
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07 Mar 2017 05:55 PM
What about skipping the sub floor all together and installing your hardwoods right onto the joists? That is what they used to do in the old days and its plenty strong. I will use construction adhesive and staple at every joist. Obviously you need longer sections of flooring. This is what I decided to do.

Then you could do the staple up system with aluminum plates. I struggle to see how that could possibly be worse than warm board, as the aluminum is directly against the flooring. Maybe even better because there is no plywood under the aluminum to steal the heat away.
ronmarUser is Offline
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09 Mar 2017 10:32 AM
Posted By loghomebuilder on 07 Mar 2017 05:55 PM
What about skipping the sub floor all together and installing your hardwoods right onto the joists? That is what they used to do in the old days and its plenty strong. I will use construction adhesive and staple at every joist. Obviously you need longer sections of flooring. This is what I decided to do.

Then you could do the staple up system with aluminum plates. I struggle to see how that could possibly be worse than warm board, as the aluminum is directly against the flooring. Maybe even better because there is no plywood under the aluminum to steal the heat away.


Two downsides to that that pretty quickly come to mind are 1)Air sealing might be a problem. 2)Any water leak or spill onto the floor is going to rapidly contaminate a LOT of insulation rather quickly as the puddle spreads and falls thru the flooring...
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09 Mar 2017 11:18 AM
No informed decision can be made on any heat transfer element until you know the heat load in each room i.e. ACCA Manual 'J'.

From there a total heat load, fuel source, boiler, controls and then, finally, the means of distribution.

I have used many elements in the same building on different levels with different loads.

Whether one type of radiant panel or radiator is more "efficient" than another is but one element of the decision making process.
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10 Mar 2017 08:38 AM
Agreed. While better radiator heat transfer usually* means lower water temperatures and better efficiency with a condensing boiler, the effect usually isn't large (eg, maybe $100/year in a well insulated house). So run the numbers before deciding.

* - the boiler typically produces the highest temperature needed for any given outdoor conditions. One zone/radiator that requires a higher temp might push others into "no difference".
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24 Mar 2017 02:11 PM
Ronmar, I'd love to hear how you like WarmBoard once it's all up and running. Have you been able to try it out yet?

Rgonyer, what did you decide as far as Warm Board or the RHT system?

We're looking at both these options for a new build second story addition and a retrofit on the first floor in the Pacific Northwest.
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24 Mar 2017 11:02 PM
Yea, I will post about it once I get it up and running. That will be a while though, I am pretty slow. We are going to place roof trusses on Monday so I have a bit of work to do before I am ready to "fire it up"...
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27 Apr 2021 09:15 PM
I am building new house, and I sent my plans to Warmboard for quote, for 4500 sq.ft. they gave me $55K (this is board, pipes and manifolds). Looks very expensive!!! I know RHT floor less expensive or Ecowarm boards. Anyone can recommend radiant heat plumber in NJ area?
newbostonconstUser is Online
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29 Apr 2021 11:28 AM
You can tell about your house or just search this forum. There is tons of info. You may need to search google to find anything. Search like "greenbuildingtalk radiant floors"
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." George Carlins
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