BarrierX5
Last Post 18 May 2017 07:16 PM by The1Tnt. 18 Replies.
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maxvdhUser is Offline
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13 Mar 2017 01:38 PM
Does anyone have any experience using the BarrierX5 product under a heated slab? I'm having a new workshop/garage built with a hydronic heated slab. I am in the NW Boston area. I would have insulated under it with a layer of 2" blue XPS + vapor barrier but my GC is interested in using this Barrier X5 stuff because he is concerned about crushing the XPS boards. On paper it doesn't really impress me at only R5.3 - it just looks like it saves some labor. Here's a link if it's allowed http://s3.supplyhouse.com/product_files/eBAR464X5-Brochure%20(2).pdf
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13 Mar 2017 06:38 PM
Pretty unimpressive indeed. Forget about it- it's barely more than a glorified vapor barrier- you need a lot more performance than that under a heated garage slab.

Even 2" of XPS is on the skimpy side for NW MA. Labeled-R notwithstanding, by end of life it's performance drops to about R8.4 as it loses it's climate damaging HFC blowing agents, and you'd ideally be looking at R15 (or more).

In MA there are multiple vendors of reclaimed roofing foam selling both Type-II EPS and 2lb polyisocyanurate board at a fraction of the retail price. You can't install polyiso under slabs without risk of it becoming saturate over time, but EPS is fine. Go for at least 4"- it'l cost less than 2" of virgin stock XPS, and will perform at about R17 on day 1, and at day 20,000. A couple of the larger outfits trading in surplus & used foam are Nationwide Foam in Framingham, and Green Insulation Group in Worcester.

http://www.nationwidefoam.com/

http://www.greeninsulationgroup.com/

Used XPS is fine, and if you're stapleing the tubing to the foam it will have better staple retention than EPS. From a compressive strength and "crushing the foam" perspective, don't sweat it. Even crummy 1lb density "Type-I" EPS has sufficient compressive strength to drive 10 ton trucks on it over a 4" slab, and Type-II (1.5lbs per cubic foot nominal density) is used under "walkable" membrane roofs all the time. If you were only installing an inch a few dents and scars might matter, but at 4" it can be pretty beat up and still work. Most of the goods coming from the above outfits looks almost like new, and costs about 1/3 or less virgin stock. Remaindered and factory seconds virgin stock will sometimes be as high as half-retail, but isn't really necessary.

The other aspect of using reclaimed foam is that it's really the only foam that's truly green. The environmental hit has already been taken, and re-using it just piles on to the "benefit" side of the cost-benefit equation.
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13 Mar 2017 09:25 PM
Once again Dana 1 doesn't know what he's talking about. The 25 PSI @ 10% deflection is an extremely low allowable that can easily be had bending along the lateral short axis (moment arm), long axis worse, depending on the soils shear strength and PI index. What we have here is foam hersay with no field data to support any of it. EPS/XPS/P-iso has about the same allowables. Poliso does not "saturate" more or have a max moisture content higher than XPS or P-iso, P-iso has a little higher DWW/DSS just cost more for not much better wet u-values.

Once it exceeds 10% deflection it has permanently deformed past it's "yield strength", cracks, infiltrates water since the plastic vapor barrier more than likely is torn too. Now there are mold issues that continue to grow.

A similar property foam is bad is "Creep" same reach yield strength, permanent deformation.

High perm rated and MMC, DWW/DSS mineral wool board has a compression allowable of 700 PSI @ 10% deflection but cost about $.25-.50/SF more since it is a much better product including creep and life cycle fatigue strength, wet u-value retention.

It's always best to insulated below a suspended slab.

Foam recycled or not damages the earth, ends up in land fills releasing toxins to ground or water ways since it not inert and a synthetic. It's not green. Roxul makes a better IS board, or a PI test may show no barrier is needed like well drained or low PI index soils.
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13 Mar 2017 09:34 PM
Thanks for the great advice Dana. My only concern as far as load goes was the 2 post lift I'll be installing in there but still, I should be well under 15-25 psi of pressure once the post load is spread by the reinforced 6" slab. Do you have any experience with lifts? Would your preference be to skip the insulation directly underneath the post locations?

While I have you - do you have any thoughts on best route for heating this building here in Carlisle? I used Beopt to estimate that I want a 14kbtu/hour heating capacity to keep the inside at 63F continuously, which would be the plan if I only heated the slab. Ideally, I'd like to keep the building at a nominal 55 degrees in winter and then kick up the temperature a bit when I'm working in there with an auxiliary heat source. I was originally thinking of splurging on a Chilltrix but I don't think its performance in my application justifies the expense. I have been debating just installing a mini split (FH18 maybe?) and calling it a day, leaving the slab to be heated later when I spend more time in the garage. I have a 5 kW PV array that's unfortunately on a PPA (previous owner initiated) that cost me 15.8 cents/kWh. We only have a couple months in the summer where the panels produce more than we use; I'm working on trimming energy consumption for cooling a bit. Electricity from Eversource is about 21 cents/kWh all-inclusive last time I checked. I also have propane on my property but I'd love to avoid digging a trench to run a line. Propane is around $3/gallon right now I think. Am I missing an option here? At these electricity rates I wouldn't think resistance water heating would pay off even if I could augment the PV system a bit.
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13 Mar 2017 09:47 PM
My only concern as far as load goes was the 2 post lift I'll be installing in there but still, I should be well under 15-25 psi of pressure once the post load is spread by the reinforced 6" slab. Do you have any experience with lifts?

This doesn't make sense. Post or pile drivers? That produce a bending tension load?

I used Beopt to estimate that I want a 14kbtu/hour heating capacity to keep the inside at 63F continuously, which would be the plan if I only heated the slab

Nor does this, BEOPT does not auto size HR.

I would have insulated under it with a layer of 2" blue XPS + vapor barrier but my GC is interested in using this Barrier X5 stuff because he is concerned about crushing the XPS boards

Nor does this, XPS has a higher compression (40-60 PSI) @ max deflection than Xboard/HL all are very low deflection for large 4 x 8' spans.
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13 Mar 2017 09:47 PM
As for Parahomes... I'll be interested in Dana's comments.
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13 Mar 2017 09:51 PM
Posted By PARAHOMES on 13 Mar 2017 09:47 PM
My only concern as far as load goes was the 2 post lift I'll be installing in there but still, I should be well under 15-25 psi of pressure once the post load is spread by the reinforced 6" slab. Do you have any experience with lifts?

Yes, I own and operate one in my current garage right now. It sits on a 5" unreinforced slab and has given me no trouble. Granted I only tend to work on lighter-weight vehicles. Am I missing something?

This doesn't make sense. Post or pile drivers?

Not sure what you're asking about.

I used Beopt to estimate that I want a 14kbtu/hour heating capacity to keep the inside at 63F continuously, which would be the plan if I only heated the slab

Nor does this, BEOPT does not auto size HR.


Fair point. Those numbers are based on its sizing for a mini split.
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13 Mar 2017 09:53 PM
Posted By maxvdh on 13 Mar 2017 09:51 PM
Posted By PARAHOMES on 13 Mar 2017 09:47 PM
My only concern as far as load goes was the 2 post lift I'll be installing in there but still, I should be well under 15-25 psi of pressure once the post load is spread by the reinforced 6" slab. Do you have any experience with lifts?
Yes, I own and operate one in my current garage right now. It sits on a 5" unreinforced slab and has given me no trouble. Granted I only tend to work on lighter-weight vehicles. Am I missing something?
This doesn't make sense. Post or pile drivers?
Not sure what you're asking about.
I used Beopt to estimate that I want a 14kbtu/hour heating capacity to keep the inside at 63F continuously, which would be the plan if I only heated the slab

Nor does this, BEOPT does not auto size HR.


Fair point. Those numbers are based on its sizing for a mini split.

That won't work. Share a drop box link with me I'll look at tomorrow or something.
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13 Mar 2017 10:25 PM
The other thing it is obvious that is not understood above is those values are referred to as "limit loads" the manufactures publish. Limit load is where creep or the materials starts to "yield" to permanent deformation and won't return. We NEVER design to limit load. For a positive safety margin typically in AEC of 2 we design to 1/2 limit, 1/3 is better more conservative. Now your PSI went down to 10-15's PSI @ 10% deflectiion. As I said, VERY LOW for such high spans especially low shear, high PI expansive/contrative soils that don't distribute load well from rigid boards. When rigid boards under high cyclic loads deflect they "creep" to Yield Strength in time. Now the r-value is pretty much worthless.
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13 Mar 2017 10:37 PM
Thanks, I'll be happy to have your input. Let me know if this works. https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5CtyTe9c-70X2pNcXRaMTY4ZUk
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14 Mar 2017 06:42 AM
Posted By maxvdh on 13 Mar 2017 09:47 PM
As for Parahomes... I'll be interested in Dana's comments.

DANA 1 often acts outside his knowledge base out here. Now he's a want-a-be structures Engineer which obviously he is not! You can take any ill-advice you choose. For the rest of the readers there are two choices in IRC code.

1. You hire a licensed PE. A good one will want PI test which does not cost much ~ $150. May want soil shear depending on PI that does cost more.

2. You find a code path you understand (more risky).

The last thing anyone should do is attempt to interpret mfg data I just showed you don't understand, especially when alot of it is missing. Due to a lack of field data with foam under slabs, the best safety margins are 3Xs limit load which puts the lab tested static mechanical properties @ 8 PSI @ 10% deflection for Barrier's best. Depending on grade the XPS/EPS/PISO is not much better than .8 inch deflection linear displacement end-to-end at max compression design allowable loading. The tables should also include limit loads under heat and moisture loads.  Typically, standard field testing validates all lab testing that lacks here.

The mfg does not test for long life "dynamic" cyclic fatigue or creep so, at this point in time those are unknowns. Those that like to design to unknowns are field testing the products for the mfgs I am sure they appreciate you saving them the costly expense. Once your foundations fail in tension bending you will pay a large price for not adhering to #1 or #2 advice and coming to the internet for non-pro unfounded opinion like Dana 1's and lets not forget GBA.


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14 Mar 2017 06:50 AM
Posted By maxvdh on 13 Mar 2017 10:37 PM
Thanks, I'll be happy to have your input. Let me know if this works. https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5CtyTe9c-70X2pNcXRaMTY4ZUk

Got it. You be well advised to update to V. 2.7 they updated cold climate MSHP quite a bit you are using to size HR inaccurately. I'll take a look as soon as I have some time.

I don't know why they have no HR or Geothermal. NREL likes to do integration right hoping they do soon along with air-to-water HPs like Chiltrix. They are all very costly options. Chitrix ugly air handlers cost too much, the new C34 system has as good or better COP than most CCHPMS, don't know why you think other wise and integrates better with HR & DHW and a back-up water CCHPMS do not but, I have not justified the higher price yet.
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14 Mar 2017 09:38 AM
See here to learn more about the loads on foam under concrete. Stronger or thicker (where the lift base is) concrete helps, thicker foam hurts. It's not clear to me how one achieves complete, non compressible contact between the foam and the underlying base. Certainly not coarse gravel. Dry sand?
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14 Mar 2017 10:59 AM
Posted By PARAHOMES on 14 Mar 2017 06:50 AM
Posted By maxvdh on 13 Mar 2017 10:37 PM
Thanks, I'll be happy to have your input. Let me know if this works. https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5CtyTe9c-70X2pNcXRaMTY4ZUk

Got it. You be well advised to update to V. 2.7 they updated cold climate MSHP quite a bit you are using to size HR inaccurately. I'll take a look as soon as I have some time.

I don't know why they have no HR or Geothermal. NREL likes to do integration right hoping they do soon along with air-to-water HPs like Chiltrix. They are all very costly options. Chitrix ugly air handlers cost too much, the new C34 system has as good or better COP than most CCHPMS, don't know why you think other wise and integrates better with HR & DHW and a back-up water CCHPMS do not but, I have not justified the higher price yet.


I will update BeOpt when I have a chance. I can imagine that the added thermal mass of the slab will allow for a little smaller heat source but figured the MSHP sizing was reasonable if somewhat conservative. It's all a bit of a crapshoot because air leakage dramatically affects heat load estimates and I have no solid numbers on the actual air-tightness that I'll actually achieve. I estimated 2 ACH50 but I'm sure that will largely depend on how well I can seal my custom carriage house doors.

Chiltrix performance seems to be excellent at warmer temperatures but the heat output derates more quickly than an FH series MSHP at low temps. http://www.chiltrix.com/chiller-technology.html . It should still be usable in my climate but it costs a lot more than a more capable MSHP. That may be the price I pay for luxurious slab heating.
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14 Mar 2017 11:04 AM
Posted By jonr on 14 Mar 2017 09:38 AM
See here to learn more about the loads on foam under concrete. Stronger or thicker (where the lift base is) concrete helps, thicker foam hurts. It's not clear to me how one achieves complete, non compressible contact between the foam and the underlying base. Dry sand?


Thanks for the link - that's an interesting article. Unfortunately I don't have any data on the soil here. We have a lot of ledge in my area so there should be good support not too far underneath the foundation. I'm just hoping it doesn't interfere with the excavation.

I suppose I could delete the foam in between and around the lift posts and fill in with more compacted gravel there but your article makes that sound likely overconservative.
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15 Mar 2017 08:51 PM
I been swamped at a new test lab assignment. I’m doing product level structural testing related to this discussion for a new product I cannot disclose. The way design development should go (like in the case of foam products) is there is a FEA (Analysis) /Finite Element Model (FEM) that is initially produced from Design CAD Models, these days paperless 3D called Model Based Definition/BIMS. For deflection on a plate the article discussed, we set up a compression plate load on the Unit Under Test (UUT) and for deflection we use LVDTs (Linear Variable Differential Transformers). If interested google, simply put they are little actuators with a piston rod in a magnetic field cylinder that measures liner displacements from E-6 – 30”. So if we set up LDTVs at the ends of a 4 x 8 sheet we could produce mfg data and conform, certify to a test standard like ASTM. When the test is over, we take those results back to the FEM and hope it is within +- 10% of safety margins, or, we still have positive vs negative margins…that data is populated or back calibrates the FEM as empirical. That is no different than BEOPT, WUFI, code, design guides, or the better models that have the funding since what I do is not cheap. I’m also doing temperature, humidity, and moisture (soak) testing with the LDVTs & “strain gages” attached another linear displacement type instrument.

I’m also doing plumbing operation, proof, burst, and rupture testing at various PSIG.

If the test did not fail, from there we release it to the client that witnessed all the test and it goes out for field testing where more issues may cause a redesign or revisions to code, standards, etc, or better technology in part or whole causes us to go back to the design models/lab.

Three main modulus are validated, young’s, shear, bulk, along with other mechanical properties. Creep would take a different test in a hot box like my temperature and humidity chambers with a “load cell” that puts compression cycles on the foam that is accelerated over 30 years, or some long life in a matter of weeks.

That’s what I was referring to above that is missing for under slab foam. This article lost my attention in the first paragraph when it stated “EPS has been successfully installed for more than 40 years” when it did not point to a Final Test Report (FTR) of such findings. I guess readers are supposed to believe that since some magazine article said so. Reminds me of post, threads.

The other path the article is based in is called “conformity by analytical methods” where math or other science is used, more general, not specific in the article to a manufactured part. It can be specific, for example, later I’ll be doing fungi testing by analytical methods on the UUT I’m testing now, like WUFI-BIO modeling, since that is acceptable to this client. Often, lab testing is not invoiced until it is too late and there are issues, since it is expensive and lots of analysis.

In this case, it stated we can get a “Modulus of Subgrade Reaction” (MSR) the test I am doing would provide to a client. I’ve never seen that in the foam specs, nor creep, as I said unknowns. The article appears to be static dry analysis since there is no tie to sub soil atteburg limits.

In code we can find soil bearing strengths for different soils. This is another method vs MSR for “rigid foundations”. In rigid foundations more foam thickness equals more stiffness, more distributed pressure if the plates are assumed to be planer.  It has to since concentrated or point loads crack it. MSR is a flex method or well know flexural modulus with a nick name. More foam thickness as Jon accurately stated causes Ks (MSR) to go down, less pressure distribution, more concentrated load in flex slabs “plate” is ideal to keep it from max deflection limit load.

So, the two methods tested rigid foundation using code bearing & analytical MSR using flex modulus can be combined. At the end of the day, pressure/settlement is the determine factor.

Crude assumptions are made and the article is anything but “conservative”. MSR works well for soils, not rigid foam and rigid foam is not a simply supported beam like a slab that spans between solid footings. Foam can also be in bending under high subgrade concentrated pressure loads, freeze-thaw, requiring a geotech report.

Further, most designers and especially DIYs like this thread will guess wrong, rarely look for mfg MSR soil  bearing or PI  in residential design until the day code requires it or a PE. In my jurisdiction PI test is mandatory. The problem is finding a lab since they only want to deal with pro’s in commercial since they often get blamed when ppl don’t understand test reports. Sound familiar?

Concrete foundations have experienced costly mistakes by pro’s, how DIY foam is supposed to solve those issues, and articles like this making it appear as an “over- engineered” industry wide design flaw, is a magazine selling bogus articles, just like most GBA blogs and Q&A.

So to answer Jon question, “how to achieve compete non-compressible contact between the foam and underlying base”

By suspending the slab so the compression load is within allowable design load limits tested by the manufacture as I denoted above. That takes at least two Engineers, a geotech report to a PE to design to low cost. That may require stabilizing soil so foam can work.

A “conservative” approach would be to never use foam. Only use products with high compression limit load like Roxul IS board @ 700 psi @ 10% deflection or Foamglass 1200 psi IIRC, or any way you can get the highest compression for the buck. Less than 100 PSI is not enough margin.

There are some insulative cretes using lime, magnesium, pozzolans, aggregates, AAC, that are better than foam hygrothermalyl & 100+ PSI compression/better than concrete deflection properties w/large max moisture contents & liquid transfer coefficients. The materials cost little but the knowledge and skill set labor can be hard to find and costly.Not easy to get a ready mix company to do a custom design, many have their own labs BTW but they want bulk sales, not one-offs.

Anyway, I’ll take another look at Chiltrix COP vs CCHPMS and that BEOPT model asap.

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15 Mar 2017 10:20 PM
> Roxul IS board @ 700 psi @ 10% deflection

Roxul writes "745 psf (35.5 kPa) resistance at 10% compression". Ie, ~5 psi, similar to typical de-rated foam @ ~1%. This puts some real doubts into using Roxul under a slab (they recommend foam or cellular glass for loads).

maxvdh: note that the example by Joe Pasma, P.E. doesn't make use of any soil parameters. Same here (eg, 7200 lb point load is barely OK with 3" 40 psi foam and 5" no-rebar concrete). Page 6 has foundation modulus (K) values.

Should be a low cost, conservative design to use two 4'x4' sheets of 60 psi foam + rebar reinforcing under your lift pads and lower density foam elsewhere.
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17 Mar 2017 07:31 PM
No MSR in OC specs? Foam is combustible needing a thermal barrier?

Loads in lbs and ‘stress” in PSI/PSF are two different things. Loads are developed in a lab by a loads cell with LVDTs, strain gages, etc, or under a slab in a field test using the same type of instruments in this case. That can vary from site to site, it can vary drastically around the building perimeter.

OC develop some “stress allowables” at the product level to use in a design. A PE will use the sites actual loads in an analysis as I said these days FEM to determine if the compression load acting on the foam is in the allowable limits including some safety factor. That depends on as OC states “the rigidity of each layer”. So no I would not expect OC or any OEM to have the loads to do the analysis, typically a manufacture provides only stress allowables for their products and since they did not do comprehensive field testing a safety factor applies for errors & ommisons. Note we don’t see a MSR and note foam live and dead load stress allowables are very low.

Depending on soil type, see table and procedure are in minimum code for a good reason.
http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/newyorkcity/Building/PDFs/Chapter%2018_Soils%20and%20Foundations.pdf

A good PE would layer in accordance with the bearing and concrete stress allowables to not max deflect which are MUCH higher than foam. A good airated insulated concrete would provide. Also, many assume a thermal bride based on annual ground temps & interior climate w/o doing the proper analysis and put structurally risky foam down without knowing the proper dynamic u-values, hygric, properties required. Impossible without inputs to CFD fluid and structures modeling.

I been on Engineering teams for over three decades, been around all kinds of stress and loads engineers and I am one. You have the liberals protected by errors & omisions which in this case where an under slab inspection is hard to do provides little risk in residential. Industrial, commercial, where the pro funds are perhaps not. Definitely not an area for the average DIY homeowner to be playing around, a foundation. The smarter ones get geotech reports and a PE involved. Priced to be paid for not can be very high.

My bad I was think compression modulus of 700 ish PSI which is what matters in walls/roofs since both sides are in compression. OC looks decent I had not seen last I checked. IS max compression is 8 ish psi @ 25% deflection I don’t think foam can get to w/o cracking therefore there is no data. The big one here in walls is deflection or flexure modulus or MSR, bending since its failure mode causes cracks, while compression causes more u-value.

Here is a new IS deflection test I had not seen before. http://www.roxul.com/files/5p_animation/RX-NA-EN/pdf/tech%20data/110816%20Roxul%20ComfortBoard%20Final%20Report.pdf

The applied load is the hydraulic ram @ 100-1000 lbs like from a 90 mph 3-sec gust. I’m using them for structural and plumbing fluid burst or water. The inner strain gages measures length wise deflection, outer lateral. Must be a low budget test, using digital LVDTs been better no flexible brackets needed that can bend and alter .010-.050 results.

I think those are some 2’ x 3’ boards so they won’t deflect as much as a 4 x 8’ foam, so compression in this case can be misleading. If it were foam the test would need to ram & deflect both ends. Further misleading since the furring gaps are too big, BSC knows this denoted in this: https://buildingscience.com/documents/building-science-insights/bsi-089-wufi%E2%80%94barking-wrong-tree

Which increases the deflection.

My conclusion is we can take a low compression materials and constrain (sheathing, strapping) in such a manner it performs within limit loads, in this case very small deflection. Got to hand it Roxul, this type of testing and sharing a final report I don’t find often. Every time I’ve dealt with them they are very knowledgeable and professional and I like how in the end they solicit more field testing. I’d like to see how it perform without the OSB sheathing, rain screen, on 2x studs, with structurally rated siding…that cut some cost.

And of course as I said, more lab/field testing to include creep and fatigue rather than product level allowables. Until then it is clear putting any rigid board below a slab is risky, un proven, not for the DIY.

Still swamped in a high stress lab. I'm going to try and get to that BEOPT model and Chitrix this weekend






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18 May 2017 07:16 PM
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