Replacing 17 yr old 3/4" tubing
Last Post 06 Mar 2021 12:45 AM by DETROIT AL. 5 Replies.
Printer Friendly
Sort:
PrevPrev NextNext
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Author Messages
jdwdUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2

--
22 Sep 2020 05:04 PM
I have an ~360 sq. ft. "sunroom" with a crawl space that I installed an open, one zone radiant floor heat system 17 yrs ago. My materials came from "Radiantec".
I used 3/4" tubing that was attached to the subfloor with heat transfer plates. I shut the system down last winter due to leaks. The bending radius of the tubing was a problem. Multiple kinks occurred during the installation process. It is an open system utilizing a conventional household water heater.

The first 8 or so years it worked amazingly well. Then I discovered the first leak and many more followed. The first 3 or 4 leaks were repaired by removing the weakened area and splicing back together with a barbed coupler (brass), a plastic sleeve and 4 hose clamps. Thereafter the repair hardware from Radiantec was upgraded to brass couplings. After removing all of the tubing I counted 14 spliced leak repairs. I discovered, primarily on the earlier hose barb repairs, that the brass couplers had deposits of sediment build up inside, one, I estimate to have 75% blockage. That may explain why I began to have problems with my check valve. It would not always work when there was a demand for domestic hot water. And why my pressure gauge seemed to rise higher than "normal".

So, I'm looking for advise on how to proceed with the rehab. I currently intend to install 3/4 inch Pex-a tubing. My heat transfer plates are reusable. I would like to add more, near the end of the bays where the tubing threads thru the floor joist. Are these aluminum plates available just flat? I would like to retrofit them to accommodate the radius in these areas. I am now also considering converting from an open system to a closed one. I certainly do not want to spend any more than necessary but something tells me that a closed system may be less trouble in the long run.

Thanks for your time, consideration and suggestions.

jd


sailawayrbUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2274
Avatar

--
22 Sep 2020 09:14 PM
An open loop system is far from best practice and is always best avoided. I am personally also not a big fan of plate systems as they are the worst performing and the most expensive heated floor option. I would recommend using something like Warmboard with 1/2” PEX which will mitigate bend radius issue. I can't imagine why anyone would spec 3/4" PEX for your application... If your structure can handle it, a 1.5” thick gypcrete slab would perform slightly better and likely could be accomplished for less cost. I would recommend looking at using something like a NextGen electric boiler to keep system simple, DIY friendly and low cost.

https://www.borstengineeringconstruction.com/NextGen_Boiler.pdf

However, the smallest NextGen would likely supply way more heat than you need, so you might want to consider expanding your heated floor area. In fact, to design this properly, you really should first do a heat loss analysis for the room(s). We have free DIY heat loss analysis and hydronic radiant floor heating design calculators on our website if you are so inclined.

https://www.borstengineeringconstruction.com/Calculators.html

Please be sure to read the associated calculator instructions before using them. If you decide to use a NextGen, please let me know and I will do a referral. Anyhow, good luck with your project!
Borst Engineering & Construction LLC - Competence, Integrity and Professionalism are integral to all that we do!
jdwdUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2

--
23 Sep 2020 10:36 AM
Sailawayrb,
Thanks for your input. The 1/2 inch pex seems to make sense. I was talking to a manufactures rep yesterday before posting on this forum. He said, "Why 3/4 inch? You can get the same heat with 1/2 inch, eliminate the kinking issue and it is cheaper." I think he's right except for it being cheaper. I would most likely run two lines between the floor joists which would double the amount of PEX and I will need new heat transfer plates. If I understand the application of either Warmboard or "gypcrete," both would be installed on top of the subfloor. My project is limited to options below the subfloor, with only crawlspace access.

The primary heat source for my 2700 sq. ft. home is a very efficient cast iron wood stove that is located in my basement. Here in Missouri, we are blessed with plenty of hardwood trees. I cut, load, haul, unload, split, stack, unstack, wheelbarrow it inside, restack and finally burn it. I'm an o'l retired fart and I love it doing it year round. It's is great exercise! I most always have enough well seasoned (dry) wood stacked in the shed ready to go. sunroom is an add on and does not benefit from the wood stove like the rest of the house does.

My primary objective is to keep this project as simple as possible. But at the same time I want it to last a long time. As of now I will likely switch to 1/2 inch pex and stay with the "open" system.
sailawayrbUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2274
Avatar

--
23 Sep 2020 08:47 PM
Please just be advised that below-floor hydronic radiant emitters perform very poorly. You will need a very high supply temp just to drive the heat through the subfloor and a very large percentage of this heat will go into the crawl space instead of the living space even when you put a lot of insulation below the PEX and plates. Unless you have some floor to ceiling height issue, I would think Warmboard or similar product would certainly be an option. This would perform way better than your current below-floor emitter and the 1/2” PEX could be easily routed up from the crawl space and placed into the Warmboard grooves if desired.

I suspect your open system is operating at a pressure well above the typical 15 PSI closed system pressure and you may be over-pumping it besides. Than factor in the scale/sludge factor for using an open system and you are not exactly going down the long life trail... The 1/2" PEX will have more hydraulic friction than the 3/4" which may not be compatible with how you are currently pumping it. Again, you really should make some attempt at properly designing this system so as to sort out the optimum supply temp and flow rate. At typical required flow rates, your 1/2" PEX should not exceed 300 feet length...and preferably not even 250 feet length. So, at a 12" PEX spacing, you can heat at most 300 square feet with a single loop. This may be why your previous designer may have decided to specify one loop of 3/4" PEX...when they should have specified two loops of 1/2 PEX... But one shouldn't really speculate, one should properly design the system which starts with knowing the design heat loss.
Borst Engineering & Construction LLC - Competence, Integrity and Professionalism are integral to all that we do!
DETROIT ALUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:4

--
06 Mar 2021 12:45 AM
The 1/2" will more than enough. If you still want to put it under the floor, staple it up with plastic staples that limit their depth. Than use two part closed cell foam spray. Wear a respirator and goggles and Tyvek suit. Have a fan blowing the whole time and a safety person on the outside watching you. Spray several one to two inch layers until you have around six inches of foam. A little pricey, but the BEST AND EASIEST installation method, IMO. Comes in two cans, with a long hose, extra gun tips, and the gun. Home Depot has it.
DETROIT ALUser is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:4

--
06 Mar 2021 12:45 AM
The 1/2" will more than enough. If you still want to put it under the floor, staple it up with plastic staples that limit their depth. Than use two part closed cell foam spray. Wear a respirator and goggles and Tyvek suit. Have a fan blowing the whole time and a safety person on the outside watching you. Spray several one to two inch layers until you have around six inches of foam. A little pricey, but the BEST AND EASIEST installation method, IMO. Comes in two cans, with a long hose, extra gun tips, and the gun. Home Depot has it.
You are not authorized to post a reply.

Active Forums 4.1
Membership Membership: Latest New User Latest: dliese New Today New Today: 0 New Yesterday New Yesterday: 1 User Count Overall: 34724
People Online People Online: Visitors Visitors: 128 Members Members: 0 Total Total: 128
Copyright 2011 by BuildCentral, Inc.   Terms Of Use  Privacy Statement