I am just finishing my 150ft sunroom remodel in Minneapolis and will soon start my radiant install. I will be using 1/2" al pex in conjunction with heat transfer plates from Blueridge. I chose them because their double run plates are .024" thick and will be using their plywood rip system. My question concerns expansion noise. I remember reading in Build it Yourself Solar that he used a bead of silicone in the plate grove to increase heat transfer and to abate expansion noise. Is that standard practice? Thanks, Tom

We wouldn't know as we never recommend or install HR plate systems because they are very expensive and not very efficient (i.e., poor ROI and we always advise folks to consider this). However, the companies that sell the plates or install these systems will tell you otherwise. Plate systems are also infamous for being noisy because of the metal plate contraction/expansion as you indicated. So you would be wise to take appropriate steps during installation to minimize this. Build it Solar is a great DIY website.

My investment in materials for this room is about $450. Doesn't include manifold or boiler and other essentials but you need those for whatever kind of radiant your doing and since I'm providing my own labor seems cost effective to me. Tom

Yes, doing you own labor on a plate system will definitely save you some big $$$. Your operation costs will still be higher because you will need a higher supply temp than would be required for a slab, thin-slab, or above floor system to generate the same BTUs. However, if those options are not feasible for your HR application, there is no reason to lose sleep over it. We have free DIY HR design software on our website should you want to run the numbers. We are also listed on Build it Solar too. Good luck with your project!

Their plywood rip system is above floor. In 2600 sq ft I have one spot that makes a little noise when I walk on it, I think that wouldn't have happened if I had glued the plates down as well a screwing them. I did use glue on all of the rips, and used a screw length that would fasten down both the plates and the rips. I didn't caulk the pipes into the plates yet I get no expansion noise, however YMMV. The only noise I got was from the supply trunks, however I don't even hear those since I got the insulation and drywall up in the basement. I did leave a couple of inch gaps between the plates so that alignment didn't need to be perfect. The tubing fits very tight into the plates, I'm not sure it would have been possible to install without the gaps. I will note that this system is very labor intensive to install, so if you are paying to have it done there are less expensive ways, however DIY I don't think you can get a top mount system for less. And as far as efficiency we have been exploring the depths to which this system can operate, I've been 14 degrees under design temperature (this has truly been a rotten year for weather, first floods, now cold), yet the system has been able to dump the entire output of the heat pump into the building, which works out to be about 12 btu/ft-hr @ 90 degrees.

Here it is from Builditsolar

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SpaceHeating/SolarShed/House.htm#Press

Chris

Thank you for the clarification. Yes, that does look very labor intensive, but I suspect it is quite good with regard to efficiency. I imagine the lower cost of these plates and doing the labor yourself more than offsets the cost of using another above-floor product like Warmboard that is more expensive but less labor intensive.  What are your finish floor options given the unevenness created by these plates?  Any concerns about all the plywood spacers working loose over time and causing a creaky floor?

I will be doing the screw and glue thing and finishing with tile or slate. I have been using Beopt for my energy calcs. Hoping for floor temps of 100. I choose this system because 1. I can do it myself and 2. The plate thickness is within .001" of Warmboard and hoping to get close to it's performance. Tom

Do you really need floor temps of 100F?  A 100F floor is well above the maximum recommended floor temp of 85F.  Most well insulated/sealed buildings can get by with perhaps a 75F floor temp and perhaps use a hydronic fluid supply temp of 90F to achieve it.

I should have said 100 or lower. This is a 74 year old house. My summer projects will be window replacement and insulation upgrades. If I can get close to 85 I'll be happy. Tom

Dave111. I will be doing the rest of my house ( 2100sf) as well. Curious as to how many hours it took you. Were you working alone? Tom

I used two floor coverings over the plates, Ditra plus tile, and a floating engineered bamboo with a thin dense pad. The plates were not a problem for either covering, although I suspect it could be an issue for carpet. I did some pricing of Warmboard, and I really like the product, but the material cost difference was on the order of 3X. However, that said, I suspect that if you paid for labor you would more than burn the difference (and for those who split hairs I am including the subfloor price).

Sorry, didn't see your question til after I posted. Went back and looked at the wife's blog, took her about 3 weeks start to finish. I was on the roof putting the shingles on, so she did most of the radiant floor. The only part that I helped with was to rip the osb, and apply construction adhesive to the back of the rips, the large gun takes a bigger hand than her's.

Thanks for the reply Dave111. Most of the floors in my house have 3/4" oak floors that have seen much better days. My plan is to remove and replace with engineered wood with raidiant underneath. I would like to see your wifes blog to see if I can pickup some tips or hints to help with what lies ahead if you don't mind providing a link. Thanks, Tom. Apparently this site doesn't do paragraphs when using Chrome.

Posted By sailawayrb on 06 Feb 2014 05:56 PM
We wouldn't know

True enough.

Posted By sailawayrb on 06 Feb 2014 09:08 PM
Yes, doing you own labor on a plate system will definitely save you some big $$$. Your operation costs will still be higher because you will need a higher supply temp than would be required for a slab, thin-slab, or above floor system to generate the same BTUs. However, if those options are not feasible for your HR application, there is no reason to lose sleep over it. We have free DIY HR design software on our website should you want to run the numbers. We are also listed on Build it Solar too. Good luck with your project!

How much higher, exactly? Doesn't depend on the heat source?

Posted By sailawayrb on 07 Feb 2014 11:26 AM
Do you really need floor temps of 100F?  A 100F floor is well above the maximum recommended floor temp of 85F.  Most well insulated/sealed buildings can get by with perhaps a 75F floor temp and perhaps use a hydronic fluid supply temp of 90F to achieve it.

In Oregon perhaps. Get to a cold climate like Minneapolis, add the challenge of making 100 year old house perfectly comfortable without the luxury of putting down sandwich systems or over-pouring gypcrete and reality dictates extruded aluminum plates. If you have to use a thin plate follow Dan's advice and by all means apply outdoor reset in your control strategy. And while were are admonishing, be careful of heating "experts" living and working where the average daily January mean temperature is well above freezing and about 45°F along the coast.

If you need a 100F floor temp to heat your building, you would be far better off not using HR floors for your heating system unless you intend to wear shoes in your building while it is operating. In Oregon and Washington where contractors have to be licensed, heating systems must be designed to satisfy the required outdoor design temp and NOT the average mean temp. The required outdoor design temp is typically between 10F and 20F in southern OR and is much colder in northern WA. HR floor temps seldom need to exceed 75F in new construction to meet this requirement. I don't believe recommending 100F temp HR floors in poorly insulated and sealed buildings located in cold climates is a very green approach.

Sounds like you are still dealing with an anger issue Badger. You should really work on that...its not healthy. Your oft-repeated diatribe also doesn't benefit this educational, green construction forum...although I do confess that I find you very entertaining. God bless.

And while were are admonishing, be careful of heating "experts" living and working where the average daily January mean temperature is well above freezing and about 45°F along the coast.

That's a good general rule of thumb that cuts in all different directions.

We took our architect-designed home to the major heating contractor where his new designer is from....Michigan. A little small talk about hunting and fishing in Michigan and then down to business showing him the 60 page engineered plan on the home's heating requirements, modern design, green, passive solar, heat pump, radiant, etc., etc. Talk of lifestyles and utilities (propane, but no gas available) yadda yadda....

Fast forward to the plan he drew up; $25,000 worth of ducting and dual 90K BTU forced air gas furnaces.......

Precisely...and I bet your HR floor temps are not 100F and you are not using plates either.

Don't mean to enter a battlefield here but any specific ideas of what kind of adhesive to use to lower noise, like silicone under the plates to lessen expansion noise or is this not a problem. I know Warmboard uses a proprietary product to glue their aluminum to wood claiming it reduces or eliminates noise. Tom

I totally defer to Dan and the Badger on that one...LOL. Just make sure that whatever you use does not react adversely with PEX or aluminum and also maintains its flexibility/integrity after experiencing many temperature cycles for a long time. We have had the pleasure of servicing failed Warmboard system installations and we have found them to be somewhat noisy too. I should note that these failures have been associated with the installers using the wrong HR components and NOT with the actual Warmboard which appears to be a good product albeit somewhat expensive.

Yes,
First let me say I am pleased to know that Badger has been blessed by the Borst gods, lucky Morgan... =(:~}

So our experience with our RHT floor panel system "sandwich system" is that it has great versatility in application in that it can be applied in a retro fit, new construction, or partial remodel situation, is easily done by the weekender or professional, work can be done in small bites, room by room, can go in ahead of or after drywall, can be applies as a wall system (think wains coating). As to the cost the numbers I come up with are about $3.00 per square foot (pipe, plates, turns, manifolds, plywood or MDF 6" strips purchased locally at about $35.00 per 4'x8' sheet). Pipe is based on a 8" pattern. Typical skilled labor can run about 500 square feet per day, but this will vary based on the complexity of the lay out, rooms and so on.
Typical design temp is around 90-100 degrees with 15 degree delta. The new bumble bee pumps have a great delta T function.
Disclaimer so I am not viewed as the internet hawker: You can site build your own system, pipe, manifolds, heat plates are available all over the internet and local supply houses.
Noise can be mitigated buy minimizing the delivered water temps, but we have had few if any complaints regarding sound. Once you burry the system under floor, sheet rock under side lids with fiberglass and generally close the building up, there does not seem to be a noise issue. The delivered water temps are realitivly low, unlike a staple up, typical of 135 degrees.
Plywood/MDF can be glued with liquid nails, plates can be spaced 1" lined up with a 8' or so 1/2"x 2" stick, lay it in the plates to line them up during install, and stapled through the 3/4"x6" spacers and in to sub floor further attaching the spacers.
Surface coverings;
Wood flooring can nail direct to 3/4"x6" spacers
Floating floors can float, no issues there.
Carpets will need a 1/4" ply, Masonite or similar to level the surface.
Tile, this is interesting, wonder board on top is fine, screwed and glued. Alternate, forget the plywood and heat plates and lay the pipe as to pattern and then dry-pack with concrete, tile to the concrete or wonder board to the concrete dry-pack and tile.
Versatile, and fuel efficient are the things going for this type of system. In the long run it may cost more than a staple up, but design H2O temps are significantly lowered, thus you are in condensing boiler land.
I am not quite sure what Borst references regarding wearing shoes if you are delivering water at 100 degrees, a warm floor is quite comfortable. One of my many opinion's.
So, ....
Enjoy
Dan

Not "delivering water at 100F"...having a floor temp of 100F as stated by OP. Do you still think that would be "quite comfortable"?

So you don't have any specific recommendations with regard to the OPs question about what adhesive to use to lower the noise? You believe that just burying the system will solve this concern? That is very reassuring.

We do not recommend adhesives for our heat transfer plates, others might, we do not.
We sell a lot of plates, I never get complaints on noise or heat transfer or much else for that matter.
So I suggest (assuming we are talking something similar to the RHT Floor panel type system) low delivered water temp 100 degrees-110 depending on location, building, keep an eye on delta t, and understand when the system is finished, sound will be minimal if at all, it is buried in the floor system.
For instance, several years ago we provided a local contractor a 6,000 square foot system including boiler and pump panel. This was installed in to an ultra high end residential building in Broadmoore neighborhood in Seattle ( this was a tear down the 1.5 mill home to build the new dream home on the golf course). Sleepers were glued, heat plates stapled,Oak flooring was nailed directly to the sleepers. Delivered water to floor panels 100 degrees. System is silent, no complaints from architect/owner. All is well.
I recall in the past other companies (stadler panel comes to mind) made recommendations for silicone type products, always seemed like an over kill to me.
warmboard prefers using an AL pipe (our RHT Pex AL is on their list of preferred pipe), this is because the AL expansion is about 1 10th of non AL pipes. Yet when we sell the RHT floor panel system we typically will spec RHT Pex B.
Reassured now?
Dan

Dan, fortunately I am not the one that needs to be reassured... I know that you and the Badger hardly ever let HR design fundamentals get between you and making a sale. However, I believe this forum is intended to be somewhat educational. Furthermore, in the interest of keeping this OP from making a mistake that they may regret, I’ll provide this reference to you anyhow:

Modern Hydronic Heating, John Siegenthaler, P.E., Third Edition, Copyright 2012, page 493

“Step 4: Establish a maximum allowable floor surface temperature for each room.

A maximum average floor surface temperature of 85 degrees F is recommended for rooms with prolonged foot contact. In bathrooms, hallways, and entry foyers, this temperature may be increased as high as 92 degrees F.”

Even if you choose to ignore this recommendation, at the very least you should make your customers aware of it so they can make an informed decision on whether they should push this boundary.

No Borst, its not about making the sale, we do just fine. I almost stayed out of this particular session until I was brought in to it.
I quite clearly said how I would secure the floor panel system or heat transfer plates. Our recommended way, and results we have had.
I am not here to quote Sigenthaller or others.
What is tiring is how you and your co-blogger seam to have a myopic view of how things can be done. Are disrespectful to the tradesmen and quick to assume their incompetence or worse they have a desire to screw there clients in general. You seem ready to cast blame on a wide group, be it the on line merchant, the DYI home owner and on. As a tradesman and distributor myself I see it differently, 99% of the trades people are doing the best they can, there not scammers, there doing there jobs. In these economic times a contractor will ware a mix of hats they can get it done and done well. Home owners as well are very capable. My company has provided complex systems to the widest cast of clients, and over and over I am amazed at how resourceful these folks are. Radiant heat can be held on a pedestal, over priced over designed and over sold, sure. It also can be accomplished well with a limited budget and still be a competent proper system to be proud of.
Tiring of the banter with you,
Dan

Perhaps you need to be reminded Dan that you are one of the Three Mystic Apes in years past that would go out of your way to be openly hostile and bully anyone on the RH forum who apparently made you feel inadequate. I would be happy to provide the links to these threads to remind you of this. I believe if everyone just stayed to the forum topic and behaved in a professional manner (i.e., not be dismissive of the views of others and not personally attack others because their views differ from yours), the forum would be much better served.

Delivered water to floor panels 100 degrees.

100F delivered temp in Seattle? 6000 sf? Does it just deliver little shots of heat to the radiant areas or what?

http://psychology.about.com/od/theoriesofpersonality/ss/defensemech_7.htm

Yes ICF, obviously a pulse modulation control methodology will be used here...

Cool, now all three Mystic Apes have joined the fray. It has been way too long that we have been deprived of this entertainment.

Your professionalism is truly inspiring.

Thank you Rob, we also hear that frequently from our customers and the DIYers we assist.

To clarify, I was thinking water temp but wrote floor temp. Sorry bout that. Dan thank you for that detailed reply . I will be ordering plates and your return cut-outs this week, also 3/4 ply underlayment is running just over $25 a sheet here. Thanks, Tom

As far a part load strategies I live in the CO mountains, so my system does get to run to 100%, but spends most of the time at partial load. What I did was use a delta T pump. When the load is light the pump just slows down to maintain the delta T, dropping the BTUs delivered. The recharge frequency on my buffer tank just slows down to match those BTUs delivered. Those pumps are great, you can be a little lazy with the control strategy, and the pump just adapts to what you are doing.

Dave111 are these the bumble bee pumps Dan mentioned? also, I guess you didn't see it, could I get a link to your wife's blog? I have a lot of the same ahead of me. Thanks, Tom

Yes,
I was referring to the Bumble Bee, a versatile pump,
Here is a description;
The Bumble Bee (model HEC-2) represents the very latest in variable speed wet rotor circulator technology. Its high efficiency ECM motor uses up to 85% less electricity than a standard circulator, and its out-of-the-box settings and 360˚ swivel flange makes it a breeze to install. Most importantly, the Bumble Bee’s Delta-T variable speed technology maximizes the overall efficiency of your heating system. The Bumble Bee is engineered for energy savings, ease of installation, versatility in the field and ultimate comfort.
Features:
Operates in 3 Modes - Constant Power/Fixed Speed, Setpoint/Variable Speed, Differential Temperature/Variable Speed
Fully Programmable
Plug-in remote temperature sensors included
LED displays real-time mode, watt usage and GPM flow
360° swivel flange (included) with nut capture feature
Integral Flow Check (IFC) included
Link to submittal;
http://media.blueridgecompany.com/documents/TacoBumbleBeeInstructionSheet.pdf
Dan

Thanks Dan, I'll take a look at those. Also my plates and floor panels have arrived. Let the ripping begin :-)