Pros and Cons of Pairing Geothermal with Radiant
Last Post 15 Nov 2011 02:26 PM by pachai. 41 Replies.
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NickBUser is Offline
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23 Mar 2008 08:31 AM

I stumbled onto the forum last week, and have been lurking ever since.  It is a fantastic resoruce, and I have gotten soemwhat up to speed on geothermal in record time.  This is my first post.

I will be starting construction of my 2500 sq ft house this Spring.  I live in central New Hampshire.  Prior to giving serious consideration to geothermal, I was exploring the feasibility of an indoor wood gasification boiler as a way to avoid the pitfalls of fossil fuel systems.  Becasue it is a boiler, I was all set with using hydronic radiant floors throught my house, including a loop for the garage to keep it at about 50 deg and radiant in the walkout basement slab.  Because of the expense, I was going to pass on central AC, and probably use a couple of window units.

Now that I am exploring the possibility of using geothermal, my certainty of going with hydronic floor radiant is quite shaky.  If money were no object (and it definitely is a consideration...just doing geothermal is stretching me WAY past the point of comfort), I would probably do some kind of split system.  But unless I hear differently, that seems like a very costly option.

If one were to completely discount cooling, how well does geothermal meld with radiant?  For example, the mix of a boiler with radiant is perfect.  Is there anything inherent in the heat pump process that makes it more or less efficient to heat a liquid, as opposed to air?

Then if one were to assume a radiant set up, how would cooling be done?  Could the same heat pump generate hot liquid and cool air?  Aside from the duct work, what would be required?

My house design is very open concept, and the summers up here are not THAT harsh.  As far as the AC component, I cannot imagine I will need extensive duct work throughout the entire house.  Perhaps some miniducts here and there would be enough to take the edge off.

I would greatly appreciate your thoughts and opinions on my situation.  Thank you very much. 

Eric DUser is Offline
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23 Mar 2008 09:28 AM
 Nick,

Welcome to the group!

First and foremost contact an installer in your area. They are familiar with weather conditions, ground source issue that needed to be considered. As far as water to air versus water to water, both systems have advantages and disadvantages. Normally, the water to water have lower COP values compared to water to air. I believe this difference has to do with the delta T needed. Water to water for heating needs to get the water temp up to around 120degs F, this means higher compressor pressures that require more power to achieve these levels. The water to air typically run 95 to 105deg F air temps. This accounts for lower compressor pressures and less energy to transfer the heat allowing for higher COP values. Even though the radiant floor heating may cause you to use a slightly lower efficiency heat pump configuration, there are other advantages to consider. In my opinion the radiant floor heating is a more comfortable heat compared to having an air system. There are efficiency advantages with having a reverse gradient heating system, like radiant floor heat. This is hard to explain in text, but heating from the floor and measuring air temp every foot up to the ceiling, you would find that the warmest point is at the floor and it will continue to decrease as you go up to the ceiling. Radiant heating puts the heat where it's needed and keeps the temp at the ceiling lower allowing less loss into the attic. So, the difference in COP on a water to air versus water to water may not matter in the big pictures of things.

If I were in your situation and if cost up front was a deal breaker to going geothermal or not, I would most likely stick with a two stage water to air system. I believe this would be the lowest cost for up front install and would cover both winter and summer quite nicely.

Keep us posted on how things are going on the new home front,

Regards,
Eric D<br>Southern Michigan
NickBUser is Offline
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23 Mar 2008 10:04 AM
Thank you for your thoughts, Eric.  When you say "two stage", what do you mean?
Eric DUser is Offline
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23 Mar 2008 11:00 AM
Posted By NickB on 03/23/2008 10:04 AM
Thank you for your thoughts, Eric.  When you say "two stage", what do you mean?


Nick,

The compressor of some units will work at two different ratings.  

To keep efficiency as high as possible, when the demand is high, really cold days, the unit will run at full capacity. However, on days when you have higher outdoor temps the unit can reduce itself down to a lower capacity, kind of like changing gears in a car, to allow longer run times but using less power. This also helps for better cooling in the summer by letting the unit run longer at a lower power setting allowing it to do a better job of getting humidity out of the house.

You might want to do a search on the web, as it might help better understand then I did.

Regards,
Eric D<br>Southern Michigan
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23 Mar 2008 08:31 PM
NICK,
I AGREE WITH ERIC IN THAT YOU SHOULD CONSULT A LOCAL PRO TO HELP. LET HIM DO HIS/HER THING WITHOUT TOO MUCH MICROMANAGING FROM US MICHIGAN BOYS.
ONE THING I DIDN'T NOTICE WAS WETHER YOU WERE EXPLORING OPEN OR CLOSED LOOP. INITIALLY OPEN LOOP CAN BE LESS EXPENSIVE TO INSTALL AND DEPENDING ON WATER QUALITY WORK FINE FOR YEARS. YOU MAY THEN CONVERT TO CLOSED LOOP LATER IF THAT IS YOUR DESIRE.
JOE
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23 Mar 2008 08:50 PM
Thanks for your response, Joe.  I am definitely handing the reins to a professional.  I have inquiries out to several local contractors that are approved by my local electric utility.  But I do like to have an idea of what I am getting into.  The one contractor I have spoken with already suggested an open loop system.   This is based on the fact that my home will be in a very rural area where I will need to drill a well anyway.  I know the area, having lived next door to the current building lot, and the well water is outstanding and plentiful.  When I lived there, I never needed any type of filtration equipment and my friends raved about the taste.

I also have a lot that slopes down to a large beaver pond.  I don't think it is deep enough for a pond loop, but it sure makes for a great catchment for the runoff of an open loop system.  At least that is how it seems to me, Mr. Newbie.

Giving up radiant is tough, since it really seems to make a lot of sense.  But the benefits of geothermal appear to outweigh what I am giving up with radiant.  Plus, the AC is a really nice bonus.
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23 Mar 2008 09:01 PM
NICK,
I DIDN'T SUGGEST YOU GIVE UP ON THE IN FLOOR RADIANT. THERE ARE WATER TO WATER SYSTEMS, AND DEPENDING ON BTU'S REQUIRED, ON DEMAND OR SUPPLEMENTAL HOT WATER SYSTEMS. I DON'T KNOW THAT CONSIDERING YOUR FUEL SAVINGS, YOU WILL FIND YOUR EXPENSE ON THE APPLIANCE INSURMOUNTABLY HIGHER THAN A HIGH EFFICIENCY BOILER. DEPENDING ON THE TYPE OF FUEL YOU ARE BUYING AND THE LOAD, YOUR PAY BACK COULD BE IN JUST A COUPLE OF YEARS AND CERTAINLY LESS THAN 10. GENERALLY THE ONLY WAY IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE IS IF YOU WOULD ONLY STAY IN YOUR HOME A FEW YEARS. MY COMPANY SELLS GAS AND OIL APPLIANCES AS WELL, WE LIKE TO GEAR OUR ADVICE TO THE BEST INTERESTS OF THE END CONSUMER. SOMEONE WILL FEEL THE SAME IN YOUR NECK OF THE WOODS.
JOE
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cnygeoUser is Offline
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23 Mar 2008 09:03 PM
I think radiant heat is an ideal application for geothermal. As Eric mentioned most people find radiant more comfortable than forced air, and there may be inherent efficiency advantages in terms of being comfortable at a lower temp (although I have yet to see a definitive study on this). The key to efficiency is keeping your water temperatures as low as possible. For example, at 120F radiant temp, my COP is slightly less than 3, but at 100F it is about 4, and at 85F it is over 5. So, if you go this route, control your water temp based on outdoor temp - in milder weather your COP will be very high. Eventually I'm hoping to average a COP of about 4.5 over a season. Low temperature is also key for compressor durability.

If you haven't already, check out http://www.radiantpanelassociation.org - lots of good radiant system design info there and knowlegable folks on the forums. There are too many variables to go into here, but make sure you are very certain of your design and the output you are hoping to get - radiant floor with a boiler is pretty forgiving since you can just crank up the temp, and there's a lot of optimistic output information out there.

One other advantage - you can run your DHW as a seperate zone and pick up a lot more of the load than you could with a desuperheater (you'll probably still need to "top it off" the hast few degrees).

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23 Mar 2008 09:09 PM
AS CNYGEO MENTIONS YOU HAVE MANY POSSIBILITIES, BUT YOU CERTAINLY NEED TO EXPLORE THEM BEFORE THE IN FLOOR TUBE IS IN PLACE, OR DESIGN YOUR SYSTEM AROUND WHAT YOU'VE INSTALLED.
J
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Palace GeothermalUser is Offline
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23 Mar 2008 11:10 PM
Hydron makes a heat pump combo unit that will give hot water for radiant and also hot and cold forced air.  It is ideally suited for a person who wants radiant floors and forced air cooling.
Dewayne Dean

<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system
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25 Mar 2008 09:11 AM

If I understand this correctly, there is no inherent higher cost of pairing geothermal with radiant.  The additional costs I have heard of come from, in essence, building two delivery systems; in-floor hydronic and air ducts for the AC.  Is this right?  Or is there an additional cost to having a heat pump that can output hot water and cool air?

Are there heat pumps that are water to water, AND water to air?  How would this be accomplished?

Thanks agains for your help.

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25 Mar 2008 09:46 AM
Posted By NickB on 03/25/2008 9:11 AM

If I understand this correctly, there is no inherent higher cost of pairing geothermal with radiant.  The additional costs I have heard of come from, in essence, building two delivery systems; in-floor hydronic and air ducts for the AC.  Is this right?  Or is there an additional cost to having a heat pump that can output hot water and cool air?

Are there heat pumps that are water to water, AND water to air?  How would this be accomplished?

Thanks agains for your help.

The Hydron unit will do hot water and hot air:

Hot Water Combination
Forced air and hot water heating units from 1.5 to 6 tons.
These units are ideally suited for heating all or part of your structure with radiant floors and heating portions with forced air (if you choose), and cooling the entire structure with DX forced air. Unlike some combination equipment on the market, this unit has been around long enough to have the "bugs" worked out. The Hydron Combination is probably the best designed and most reliable equipment of its kind.


this unit will cost more than a forced air unit because it is a combo unit.

A water to water  costs about the same as a water to air unit.  You  are right that the delivery system is where the big cost differences are. A radiant system can be 10 times as much as a duct system.
Dewayne Dean

<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system
Eric DUser is Offline
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25 Mar 2008 10:04 AM

Nick,

 

If I have it right from one of your earlier post, cost was a major concern and maybe a deal breaker to go or not to geothermal.  If this is still the case, in my opinion, going with a water to air system or maybe a DX to air would most likely cost you the least to get into geothermal apposed to having to use a more conventional heating/cooling system.  The main problem when it comes to cost, the hydronic system will add up quickly with the pumps, lines, buffer tank and valving, compared to air system, which you would need for cooling even with hydronics.

 

If you go with water to air, you could still put tubing in the floors for future upgrade to a hydronic system.

 

The bottom line in my opinion, you would be better off going for the lowest cost up front geothermal system compared to going to a more conventional heating system.  With the savings you will get, put money away to upgrade to hydronics in the future.

 

Regards,

Eric D<br>Southern Michigan
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25 Mar 2008 12:14 PM
Thanks again Dewayne and Eric for your advice and input.  I just had a very productive meeting with my plumber.  He is very postive about geothermal, and I will be proceeding in that direction.  I have emailed my house plans to two different geothermal designer/installers and will be adding a third so that I have a decent variety of viewpoints.

My plumber suggested that, if at all possible, I go with one of the combination pumps that can do water to water and water to air.  Instead of duplicating my delivery systems, he suggested that I put radiant in all of the slabs (garage and walkout basement), and forced hot air in the upper areas of the house.  Then in summer, I can use the upstairs ducts for AC.  As far as the basement is concerned, it will probably stay naturally cooler, plus with an open staircase, the AC from the upstairs will probably work its way down.  This way, I don't duplicate delivery systems, and get the benefits of both.

The question remains, how much more expensive such a combination pump is, when compared to a dedicated water to water or water to air pump.  In the grand scheme of things, this may be a worthwhile upgrade, and is not nearly as wasteful as doubling up on delivery systems throughout the house.  We shall see.

Is Hydron the only game in town when it comes to combination units?  The installers I have been speaking with use Climatemaster and ECR Tech (http://www.ecrtech.com/content/interior.asp?section=products&body=main.htm) products.  Do either of these brands have a reliable combination pump?

Again, many thanks.
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25 Mar 2008 12:23 PM
Posted By NickB on 03/25/2008 12:14 PM

Is Hydron the only game in town when it comes to combination units?  The installers I have been speaking with use Climatemaster and ECR Tech (http://www.ecrtech.com/content/interior.asp?section=products&body=main.htm) products.  Do either of these brands have a reliable combination pump?

Again, many thanks.

Not that I know of. 
Dewayne Dean

<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system
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25 Mar 2008 01:07 PM
I believe Econar makes a combo unit - I can't comment on reliability as I haven't used or even seen one.

Another option that might come out cheaper would be to use a water-water gshp with a water-air heat exchanger for the forced air part, either a single unit with traditional ducting or individual fan coils. You'd give up a little bit of efficiency since you'd be going from refrigerant to water to air instead of refrigerant to air, but the drop would be very small if the system was designed correctly. This also eliminates any concerns of oversizing in cooling mode since you can decouple the heat pump output from the distribution system by using a buffer tank, no need for a 2-stage system.

Since your cooling load is so small compared to your heating load, I'd seriously look into doing radiant throughout if you can possibly afford it. It is certainly cheaper to do it now than later as a retrofit. You might want to talk to Rob at www.nrtradiant.com (I think he posts on these boards) - he is extremely knowlegable and understands low temperature radiant design and the associated cost/performance tradeoffs. He is located in Maine, I believe, so he would have a good idea of costs in your area and might have ideas for lower cost solutions.
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26 Mar 2008 01:04 AM
Nick,
Don't know wether you're looking at open or closed loop, but direct exchange systems are able to do cooling and hot water production as well.
Joe
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26 Mar 2008 07:10 AM
Thanks for your reply, cnygeo.  A lot of what you said went over my head.  But I do understand your advice to put radiant in throughout the house.  If I had the money, I would.  As I am sure you know, building a house is a series of compromises, unless you are very rich.  I am already cutting corners on many cosmetic things in order to have a top notch envelope, take advantage of geothermal, put radiant in the slab, etc.  With my budget, I just can't justify complete redundancy of delivery systems by doing ducts and radiant throughout.  I completely agree with your comments, and I sure would if I could.

Joe, I have two professionals looking at my house plans as I type.  I will be adding a third to the mix.  I have yet to hear their final recommendations regarding open loop, closed loop, DX, etc., but I have some indications of where they are coming from.  One guy says that since I have to drill a well anyway, it is crazy not to go with an open loop system.  He uses Climatemaster products.

The other guy uses ECR tech products (Earthlinked), which I believe is a DX system.

The interesting thing is I don't believe either manufacturer makes a combination system that can generate hot water and air.

So onward we march....
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26 Mar 2008 07:36 AM
I don't know much about geo, but what about Waterfurnace? They have the "synergy 3" which I believe will do water to water and water to air I believe.

Bunt
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26 Mar 2008 08:23 AM
Water Furnace Synergy 3 unit does do hot water with forced air heat and cool.
Dewayne Dean

<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system
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