I just went to the website of this company ETA (http://www.earthtoair.com). It has a Deep Well system (>100ft) and claim a efficiency of 3.6~5.8COP and 16~28.5EER. But it's a very new company in TN and does not seem to have any tracking record. Anybody has any idea? It is basically the same as ECR or Nordic or EarthSource or they are different? Thank you.

Be very careful.

Their track record includes 2 other DX companies that went bankrupt; many customers left hanging with systems not working; etc.

Ask for documented proof of performance, without having to sign some non-disclosure agreement. If any geothermal heat pump manufacturer has actual COPs and EERs like that, they'd be falling all over themselves to publish the proof. Ask for ARI certification.

Stick with companies like EarthLinked (ECR) that do have a great history and background, and who have over 3000 units installed in 41 states, and 14 different countries. They completely stand behind their product. In fact, EarthLinked has fixed problems of an ex-dealer who installed the systems incorrectly. That dealer is now with ETA. Sorry if this seems strong, but I'm dealing with them schmoozing a potential customer right now. They've flat out lied to my face about the performance of their system. My biggest concern with them is that they will give DX a horrible name, tearing down what we've worked for in building a good program and reputation for a DX system that works, namely EarthLinked.

As far as Nordic DX goes, I haven't researched it enough to know that it definitely works, but I've heard it does. Its COPs and EERs are slightly lower than what we find with EarthLinked. There is one guy who installed one here in our neck of the woods, and has yet to see it heat his home. The compressor has locked out, and won't run. I hear that it may be because the loop is not installed correctly.

I'm not claiming that ETA's heat pumps absolutely don't work anywhere, but I have yet to see proof of them working in a harsh climate like Utah (-35 deg. F. winters, and 100+ deg. F. summers where I live). It's my opinion, though, after what they told me, that they don't have a proven product.

A sidenote on ARI certification... I'll try to keep this short...

We've been doing geothermal heat pumps for about 14 years now. After a few years into it, we found the "cadillac" of geothermal heat pumps. It could do it all. Heat domestic water, hydronic water, and forced air heat/cool. It was 3 stage heat pump, and a 4th stage for electric strip heat. We were schmoozed by the idea, and fell in love with its capabilities. We didn't worry about the ARI certification. It was tested, so they said.

Long story short, the manufacturer went bankrupt, ceased to exist, and we ate about 8 or 9 of the 17 units we installed. Some are still working, and they've had no problems. They were all similar installations. Some units couldn't keep the compressors from failing, no matter what we did. Word of mouth KILLED the idea of geothermal for about 3-4 years in our area. Sure, we sold and installed one or two, here and there, but it had been going gangbusters before that.

Sure, an EarthLinked system may cost a couple thousand dollars more, but is it really worth the risk when you're spending $20-$30K for a system that's supposed to keep you comfortable and save you money? ARI certification shows that a company's system can pass some very rigorous tests. When installed correctly, any system should perform at least to its ARI certified performance--at least its full-load performance. My advice is to not risk it. Let them build a house in your area themselves, install their system, and have ETL test labs test it to ARI's standards, AND THEN GET ARI CERTIFICATION!!! Any company worth putting such an investment into should do their due diligence in proving their system, before they get you sold on it hook, line and sinker.

Sorry for the ranting...I'll get off the soap box now...It's just a sore spot at the moment...

Tuffluck, Thak you for your reply and advices. I was worrying about the high-performance claims without any tracking record or well-published case studies. So your reply kind of confirmed that.

A question is that most DX system (Earthlink and Earthsources) has the concern of loop being too long that may cause compressor failure. ETA claims that they have a solution for it thus can extend the depth of the well. Also, their drilling size is 5~6", not 3~4". And they use R410A instead of R22. Is two 300' holes cheaper than six 100' holes? 

Since you work exclusively with Earthlink, do you know if they are working on some kind of further improvment of their system, at least for R410A. Do you know how much prices increase for R410A from R22? I heard R22 will be faced out next year. I don't see my project will start any time this year.

Also, I am guessing all these companies use compressors from outside supplier (perhaps even the same supplier). Any comment on that? Seems compressor failure has been the reliability difference between different system (kind like engine in cars), am I wrong?

Thanks again for the help.

-Harry

Right now, EarthLinked has R-407c available as the "non-ozone depleting" refrigerant. It can be used instead of R-22. R-407c is about 3 times more expensive than R-22. R-410a is also 2-3 times more expensive than R-22. As far as efficiency goes, R-22 is the most efficient refrigerant of the three.

With EarthLinked's refrigerant controls, especially their ACC, there's always oil return to the compressor, as long as their specs are followed. We've seen some (5-7) compressor failures, but they usually happen within the first week of operation. Of course, that's covered by warranty. Visit EarthLinked's website and check out their refrigerant controls. They really simplify the process. All of the loop design has been engineered, and as long as installation spec. is followed, it WILL work.

EarthSource Energy used to be the American Geothermal heat pump. I'd like to know how they perform. Does anybody have one that reads these forums?

On the drilling differences, ETA claims 5 tons with two 300' deep wells. That's 600' of larger hole for 5 tons, whereas EarthLinked is five 100' holes for a total of 500' for 5 ton (typically). Larger diameter holes require more grout, more time, more fuel--and deeper holes involve more risk. The price to drill deeper is usually higher than just the 100' holes. Last Thursday, we drilled four 100' deep holes, 4" diameter for EarthLinked's loops, all in one day. That was in tough drilling (cobbles and boulders). If we had to do the same for 300' holes, It would have taken 2 days. Right now I'm in a time crunch with the drill. I don't have the time to mess around with something that takes so long, either.

For R-410a, EarthLinked has some things in testing, but not yet available. That's why they have the R-407c ready to go.

On the compressors, yes these companies use outside suppliers for the compressors. EarthLinked is now using Copeland Scroll compressors. It's a good compressor.

Some people I’ve spoken to who have work on or installed both Nordic & ECR prefer Nordic. The person with the Nordic system that may not have had the loops installed right might also not have had his system start-up done properly as well. This could also cause problems to the long-term reliability of this fine product. However, to anyone reading these posts this is all just hearsay.

ECR is probably a fine product too, however, ECR does not provide the same level of technical detail, specification, and disclosure on their web site as do Nordic and other manufacturers. Why (unless I just can’t find it)? I’ve always shied away from such companies and products; do they have something to hide?

I’m just wondering…

SR

EarthLinked has nothing to hide. I'd like to see their tech data available to all on their website, too. It's my guess that they just don't want people to think they can install it themselves.

Nordic's site makes it look like a DIY product. Even if that's the case, I'd strongly recommend against that. Just as you point out, if the loops don't get installed right, or the start-up done properly, there can be problems. On expensive systems such as geothermal heating and cooling, it's not worth doing it wrong. Just pay a competent installer to install the product, regardless of the brand. Besides, if someone installs it themselves, who's going to fix it? No HVAC company wants to tie themselves to someone else's installation.

That's the case with the Nordic system that's been installed here. I went and looked at it yesterday. I know that the installer hasn't had geothermal training and/or experience. He's an HVAC guy. Sure, he can do A/C systems, but geothermal--especially DX--is not something you do without having been trained. If the home owner would have just paid to install EarthLinked, he'd have a working, locally supported system; he wouldn't just be using electric heat; he'd have better duct work; he wouldn't have had to wait until Dec. 18th during a blizzard to install the loop; he wouldn't have an abandoned loop; he'd be seeing at least 4.2 on his COP with a drilled loop; he'd be another satisfied, comfortable customer.

A side note to this guy's Nordic system... He actually purchased it as the "American Dream" heat pump. It will eventually be (or already is) privately labeled by "American Dream". But, as near as I can tell, it looks just like, and is supposed to run the same as the Nordic system's website says.

I'm not saying at all that the Nordic system doesn't work. I'm sure it does. Just don't do it yourself. Pay someone to do it right. When a heat pump system won't work, it reflects on the company's product. Especially when it's installed wrong.

Nordic nor any other geothermal HP is a DIY project; I couldn't agree with you more! Hire the RIGHT professional!

IMO

SR

I am curious how many of the posters on this board have done their own geothermal system and if they would be willing to share their experience.

Read the threads that start with "I installed my system myself and now it does't....help me". I read the entire geothermal forum and decided that I might be able do it my self but there are significant risk of doing so. For something that is likely not to be cheap or easy to fix Geothermal is somthing that I will only hire a proven professional when I build my house. Only you can decide the risk factor for you.

Thanks for all the help. Here are some details of my house: 3000sf in Michigan, current highest heating bill is 250CCF natural gas (a month), that is roughly 25,000,000BTU / month, 800,000BTU a day or 35,000BTU/hour. Does that sound too high? How big a system do I need? (I am guessing between somewhere between 3~5Ton). From reading this forum, that seems to be a $20~30k initial cost, corret?
Thank you.

If that rough guess is accurate, you'd need a 4 ton EarthLinked system. Of course, a reputable installer will measure your house and do his own accurate heat load calcluation.

On a retrofit, in my area, you'd bee looking at probably $18~$22K. That would be to tie it to your existing duct, drilling, everything turnkey. I don't know what you can get drilling for in your area, though. Give Mike Dilling a call from heawarsaw.com. Tell him I told you to call him. He's got good dealers in your state. He'd know who you should get some prices from.

My experience says stay away from ECR. I had a system installed by a contractor who is listed on their web site as the only local contractor that deals with ECR. He did such a poor job that one of their VP's came out to try to help him correct his mistakes. The corrections he did obviously did no good as the upstairs system quit working again within about three weeks. I have called ECR several times, sent multiple emails and get no response from them. The contractor is still listed on their web site as being the only local dealer/contractor, although I know of another local HVAC company that installed an ECR system later on. I contacted them and when they came out, they could do nothing and told me that they got little info from ECR. They said ECR was happy to sell them the units, but cared little about how the system performed. They had still not been able to figure out the problem they had with their own installation. I would stay away from ECR at all costs.

parkej,

Are you referring to EarthLinked Technologies? If so, I'm sorry for your experience. We've been with EarthLinked (formerly ECR technologies) since 2001. We've experienced wonderful support. They absolutely do stand behind their product. In fact, they've spent tens of thousands of dollars recently fixing problems from an installer who had been installing them incorrectly.

If you still can't get the problem resolved, let me know. I can get you in contact with the guy there that you need to talk to. It's Jerre Wilson. His email is [email protected] . I'm sure they'll want to make it right.

I would reiterate: We've had exactly the opposite experience as you. We've had WONDERFUL support from EarthLinked in making sure the systems work properly. We've done geo for about 14 years now, and EarthLinked has by far been the best company to deal with.

parkej,

I did some finding out on your system. I would encourage you to call Jerre Wilson at EarthLinked. He responded thus:

"I was a bit stunned by the comments made by this home owner, especially
the part about ECR being non-responsive. I personally handle all
incoming calls from end users and I have not heard of this guy until
today. When I checked with folks who have been around longer than I have
I found out that the home owner is ------------ and all these
problems happened 10 or 11 years ago.

As you know the dealer/installer is responsible for the proper design
and installation of the EarthLinked system. The load calculations were
inadequate in part because the home owner did not insulate the walls of
the house as he told the installer he would do. This was a retrofit of
an old farm house that was being remodeled. ECR went to great lengths to
resolve the installation problems including sending Russ Bath to the
site. Since the system was not designed properly all ECR could do was
make sure that our units were functioning properly and to our knowledge
they were.

I have no idea what has happened in the 10 years since this occurred,
but if anyone currently has a problem with one of our systems I
encourage them to give me a call at 863-701-0096 (office) or
863-944-1265 (cell). If you respond to the forum feel free to include my
phone numbers. If we have dissatisfied customers, I want to know about
it. "

Sorry for leaving this thread for a while. Too busy with work and kids...

Clark (Tuffluck... should we just call you Clark since you signed it this way)

Very impressive follow/up with ECR... WOW! A question, I though ECR needs 120~150ft/ton, but you mentioned a 5ton with five 100' holes. Does that mean they actually need only 100'/ton? You mentioned the efficiency loss will occure by switching from R22 to R410a, anybody knows how much more drilling is needed to recover that? Plus the cost up with R410a itself, are we looking at much more expensive system (with installation) or just a smaller amount of increase? (i.e. 10% or 50%...)

Also, a fundamental question, DX already improved many effiency issues, is there any other significant opportunity in current DX technology to improve the overal system efficiency further? like compressor, condensor (coil), or the groud loop itself? or maybe current COP~4 is pretty much the cap? Just curious from a pure technology point of view to see if the COP of 5.8 (claim by ETA) is even realistic.