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Pump head for domestic water and GSHP
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DickRussell
 Basic Member
 Posts:182
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| 22 Apr 2008 08:25 AM |
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For a NH location, where groundwater is plentiful and a well must be drilled for domestic water anyway, a GSHP (standing column well, SCW) makes a lot of sense for a very well insulated house. That's the plan. The well will be drilled to the depth that provides sufficient water supply for the house or sufficient water column for heat transfer from rock to water for the heat pump, whichever is deepest.
Obviously, minimum pump circulation power will be for just enough head to move the water through the heat exchanger and back to the well. However, domestic water supply normally calls for pump on at 25-30 psig, off at 45-50. I have seen very limited info on how the plumbing is set up to minimize the pump power most of the time and boost the pressure when house use of water calls for it. It would seem a waste of power to have the pump always deliver water at a pressure just above maximum needed in the house plumbing.
So, what is typically done in this situation? One approach, from a GSHP design company, is to have a jet pump take water from downstream of the heat exchanger and boost the pressure into the pressure tank of the domestic supply. That's a second pump, however, and it would be inside the house, creating a noise problem if not isolated.
If I were designing this, I would be inclined to use a variable speed pump in the well, with a three-way valve downstream of the heat exchanger. When domestic water supply pressure dropped to cut-in, the valve would close the return to the well and open the flow to the pressure tank. The pump speed would be increased to deliver the pressure needed to deliver water into the pressure tank. At cut-out pressure, the valve would switch back, and a check valve in the line to the pressure tank would close, preventing backflow from the tank.
I want to know what other solutions are used. I would imagine all of this has been worked out by now, but I have to wonder. Where can I find descriptions of the various schemes used? |
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bartman99
 New Member
 Posts:57
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| 23 May 2008 01:45 PM |
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Bump!
If anyone has any information, I too would like to know this or hear from anyone with SCW GSHP experience.
Thanks |
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bartman99
 New Member
 Posts:57
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| 08 Aug 2008 09:16 AM |
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So, what is typically done in this situation? One approach, from a GSHP design company, is to have a jet pump take water from downstream of the heat exchanger and boost the pressure into the pressure tank of the domestic supply. That's a second pump, however, and it would be inside the house, creating a noise problem if not isolated.
If I were designing this, I would be inclined to use a variable speed pump in the well, with a three-way valve downstream of the heat exchanger. When domestic water supply pressure dropped to cut-in, the valve would close the return to the well and open the flow to the pressure tank. The pump speed would be increased to deliver the pressure needed to deliver water into the pressure tank. At cut-out pressure, the valve would switch back, and a check valve in the line to the pressure tank would close, preventing backflow from the tank.
I want to know what other solutions are used. I would imagine all of this has been worked out by now, but I have to wonder. Where can I find descriptions of the various schemes used? Dick, We will likely be adding a SCW to our 400+' potable water well this Fall. The proposal from the contractor includes a constant pressure pump control valve (or cycle stop valve). Here's one company's website: valvesI do not know if he plans on using this comapany. Here is a part of the diagram of the system he has designed. As the system is intstalled, I'll have more information.
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Attachment: scw-csv.jpg
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engineer
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2749
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| 08 Aug 2008 12:44 PM |
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You might want to get in touch with northeastgeo.com in Hampstead, NH. They distribute, rather than install. They claim a long history in SCW systems and might be able to put you onto an experienced contractor |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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propaneBeGone
 Basic Member
 Posts:106
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| 08 Aug 2008 05:32 PM |
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Bartman, Looks like you've got a nice system allowing you to get domestic water for free (it already was used for the heat pump). The diagram shows that your new well pump will be variable speed, controlled by the Constant Pressure Controller shown. The only thing not shown on the diagram is how the pressure system works, can the pump speed be controlled to give you 50 PSI when you're using domestic water and only 30 PSI when just the heat pump is running?
I want to a Standing Column well something like this also |
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bartman99
 New Member
 Posts:57
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| 09 Aug 2008 11:56 AM |
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Actually, this is a retrofit and the domestic well is already in use. We will be "turning it into" a SCW with a geothermal heat pump this Fall. As far as I know and understand the system, the pressure controller (CSV) will control the pressure to the heat pump and domestic water.
BM
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propaneBeGone
 Basic Member
 Posts:106
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| 09 Aug 2008 01:09 PM |
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That's right, that pressure controller can speed up or slow down the pump to give you 20-30 psi for just the heat pump or 50+ psi for houshold use. If you get anymore info on the pumping control scheme I'd love to hear about it. I assume they are replacing your existing pump with a new 3 phase pump, is that correct? It is great to be able to use your existing (already paid for) well for the heat pump! Is ther anyway to break out your quote to know how much the well conversion costs? That would be the new pump (if it is new), pump pressure controls and I guess a new return water line from the heat pump to the well.
Anyway, looks great!
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bartman99
 New Member
 Posts:57
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| 09 Aug 2008 01:22 PM |
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Posted By propaneBeGone on 08/09/2008 1:09 PM Is ther anyway to break out your quote to know how much the well conversion costs? That would be the new pump (if it is new), pump pressure controls and I guess a new return water line from the heat pump to the well.
Anyway, looks great!
I doubt I'll be able to get an itemized quote for that stuff. AFAIK, no new well pump. Will use the original one for now and monitor energy use. We will be installing the Web Energy Logger (WEL) to monitor the system.
Check your PM for a message.
BM
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propaneBeGone
 Basic Member
 Posts:106
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propaneBeGone
 Basic Member
 Posts:106
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| 19 Aug 2008 09:30 PM |
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I liked that drawing so much that, "just for fun," I tried to sketch out how my existing well pump might be used for both domestic water and a heat pump (standing column well) without having to add the domestic GPM (6 GPM) and heat pump GPM (6 GPM) requirements. 6 GPM total from the Well pump should satisfy everything.
Maybe someone who's done something like this can comment... Think the check valve seperating the hi and low pressure zones will work?
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Attachment: well piping1.jpg
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propaneBeGone
 Basic Member
 Posts:106
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| 19 Aug 2008 09:36 PM |
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Re-reading Dick's orig post, I did same design as he suggests except my pump is not VFD controlled |
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DickRussell
 Basic Member
 Posts:182
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| 20 Aug 2008 08:25 AM |
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Propanebegone, why is there the diverter valve V1 in your diagram? Why couldn't the water pass through the heat pump's exchanger all the time, with no temperature drop when the heat pump isn't running?
Second comment, why not locate the bleed valve (V3) it downstream of V2? That way, when the pump is running flow into the domestic tank and EWT is below the bleed cut-in temperature, the flow into the domestic tank constitutes the bleed. Valve V3 doesn't need to know if V2 is open or closed; it can be open whenever bleed is called for, even though there is no flow through it, simplifying interlocks. I am assuming the bleed valve (V3) is sized to limit the flow relative to that returning to the well, and that pressure drops and static head changes of lines to bleed location and return to the well are such that the bleed flow is correct.
As to whether the check valve will hold pressure in the domestic system, my understanding of check valves is that after some time they may leak a bit. If this is a slow leak, it shouldn't matter, since an eventual drop of pressure in the domestic pressure tank will just turn on the pump and close V2 to bring pressure back up.
Repeating the remark in my opening post, it would be nice if someone out there who has actually plumbed things up somewhat like this would comment. Otherwise you'll be doing yours before mine, most likely, and I'll benefit from whatever you learn. We can call the arrangement the "PBG configuration," in your honor, unless it fails. |
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propaneBeGone
 Basic Member
 Posts:106
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| 20 Aug 2008 08:54 AM |
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Hi Dick, You raise good questions - and believe it or not, I made choices in exactly the areas you mention for site specific reasons, with one possible exception:
The 3 way valve, V1 is there for 2 reasons. 1. I have iron in water and if this is going to cause a build up, I'd rather limit the exposure to only the actual heat pump run hours. I'll learn by experience here. 2. I'm thinking the pressure drop of the heat pump may reduce my Domestic GPM, but I admit I haven't done any calcs based on pressure drop :).
Why not locate the bleed valve (V3) downstream of V2? You could certainly do this. I chose this configuration because I have only 4 GPM ground water recharge into my well. My thinking was, maybe I want to bleed 1 or 2 GPM overnight under cold well water conditions, while we're not use domestic water, to increase my well temp. If I put the valve where I've shown, I can bleed all night if desired, with or without the heat pump running. (wasn't that a springsteen song "Bleed it all night..."?)
In my case, I am planning to program a small logic controller to make the decisions. With the changes you mention, it would be easy to just use an ON/OFF control based on EWT, and this would work fine in many apps.
...Anyhow, the PBG config may not apply to all applications...
I am interested to hear from people who have done it, or as you say, they may be us soon. |
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