Hi All

I am pretty new to the forum, but have gained a lot of valuable info here.  I am interested in retrofitting my RI  home(2700 sq. ft. ranch, 20 yrs. old, oil fired hot water baseboard) with a geothermal heating and cooling system.  I have contacted a few people to try and get price quotes.  So far I have had a water furnace dealer come out to look at the project.  He did not give me an exact quote, but based on what he saw he thought I would need a 4-4.5 ton system.  He is a driller so the ground loop would be a vertical closed loop.  Duct work would have to be put in as none exists with my current system.  For the whole project including a desuperheater he estimated the cost to be 40K.  I spoke with two Earthlink DX installers on the phone, hopefully I can get one out here soon, and they both said they thought it would be 40-50K for the project.  This seems to be a lot more than what I was expecting.  Is there anyone out there in the New England area( or anywhere) who can give me some feedback on this pricing?  I am really interested in the systems, but the cost seems prohibively high.  Thanks.

Dkiernan

40k doesn't surprise me for 3 reasons:

1) New England is high cost
2) Retrofitting ductwork into in existing home is difficult
3) vertical loop drilling is expensive everywhere

Equipment and materials is probably only about 20-30% of the 40k

Just curious, what price range did you think it was going to be and why? The reason I'm asking is we're taking courses thru Heatspring (you should too) in prep for us possibly getting into the business down the line. We're nowhere ready yet so this isn't sales related post. We had a guy in the class last week in NJ that was having system installed and had three people giving him completely different stories. He now knows who the right contractor is after taking the intro/overview class. Stick with it, you'll be glad you did.

Hi Topgas

I was thinking more like 30K based totally on what info I have been able to find on-line. At $40,000 for the system and $4.35/gal.(what I just paid) for oil I would be looking at a minimum payback time of 12 years, more if oil prices were to drop. I am wondering if prices for the installed systems will drop in the future if more suppliers get into it, and also if tax and other incentives will increase with a change of government administration.

Having a business now and seeing the way things are going, I'd hop on it now, nothing is going down. I think payback is going to be irrelavant in the future. I think just having access to the energy period will justify it. If I had to guess, I'd say 4-5 years and shortages are going to start cropping up, who knows?

I would say that the 40k is reasonable, for a ballpark number.
If it was NOT geo and someone wanted to retrofit a 2700 sqft house with 2 zones of a/c, it would probably be around 10k. For a 4.5 ton system @ 200 ft of well per ton, thats 900 foot of well. 900 ft of well @ 33$/lft is the other 30k. These are ballpark numbers and I have no idea of the geology in the area.

I haven't seen the house, but there are opportunities that can reduce ductwork. 1 way is to put in smaller units instead of larger ones.
If there is an open floor plan, some units might not need any ductwork.

$33 per foot? Yikes, I though we had it bad here in FL at $10 per foot! Of course our 'rock' is much softer.

Opportunities to reduce ductwork - minisplits are a possibility in some areas

Not sure that I agree since geothermal Heat pumps cost quite a bit more than a regular A/C unit.

I believe the cost of drilling and installing the vertical closed loop would be around 10K and the rest would be duct work and the cost of buying and installig the equipment in the house. I have another contractor coming out Wednesday and hope to get adittional info or options.

I would highly recommend talking to Matt Orio at Water & Energy at 603.378.9122.  They are a distributor and can recommend an installer.  They will give you real costs.  I just built a house in Laconia, NH two years ago with Geo and I am laughing all the way to the bank.  I heat/cool and hot water my house which is over 7,200 SF for only $1,850/year.  I love it.  I keep scratching my head to why everyone is not doing this.  Give Matt a call, he will steer you right.  Any further questions, fire away.  I love the system and concept.  I will help in any way I can.  One note of caution, these systems need to be designed and installed correctly.  If you can do both of these things, you will be very happy.

Hi Laconia Geo

Thanks for the info. It is nice to hear from someone in my region who has taken the plunge and installed a system. I will definately contact Matt at Water and Energy. From this board and other research I have done I realize the importance of a good design and installation. What type of ground loop do you have? I am wondering about the pros and cons of a more conventional water based-vs- a DX system. Thanks again for the advice.

You should contact Mel Hensch. He's the Manufacturer's sales rep. for EarthLinked DX. He knows your area more, and he can tell you what the pros and cons will be.

Just a few pros of DX over water source:
-NO loop/pump maintenance
-Higher efficiency
-Smaller footprint
-easier design
-fool-proof loop design
-latent heat exchange instead of sensible heat exchange

Here's Mel's contact info:
Mel Hensch
[email protected]
508-328-4735 phone

I have an open loop system the I bleed 10%. I do not know much about direct X systems, but they claim there is no pumping penalties. I am told that the compressor acts as the pump. Something has to circulate the fluid in the lines. Could someone clarify this for me? If this is the case then your compressor is working harder and you have to account for the extra wear and tear on the equipment.

One might think that.

Yes, the compressor circulates the REFRIGERANT in the loop lines. However, with EarthLinked's refrigerant controls, the compressor works less than compressors in water source systems. If you want the description of what they are and what they do, go to: http://www.earthlinked.com/how-it-works/technical-specifications/acc
also: http://www.earthlinked.com/how-it-works/technical-specifications/lfc

These patented controls are what really sets EarthLinked apart from ANY other geothermal heat pump system. They allow the compressor to ALWAYS operate in the most optimum conditions, lower head pressures, and well tolerated suction pressures. Because of this, the compressors last even longer.

Note to Laconia Geo if you are out there:

I took your advice and contacted Water Energy Distributors in NH. I am going up there for a homeowners worshop later this month to meet them and hopefully get some good advice and pricing. Thanks for the info.

General forum:

I don't know if this is common for others but I have been having some difficulty getting estimates from installers. I had one come out and spend an hour looking over the project, promise a quote and then never get back to me with a quote or return my calls. Others don't bother returning calls at all. I have only managed to get one quote for 40K so far. The only thing I can think of is that most people ultimately don't buy the sytems due to the high initial cost and so the installers are less than enthusiastic about responding.

One other question. I have talked to installers whose main business is drilling, HVAC, a real estate agent, and a builder, all IGSHPA certified. I felt the most confidence in the HVAC guy. My feeling is that an HVAC person would be the best to install the system since they will be maintaining it long term, and would perhaps understand the ducting and heating and cooling requirements and systems better. What do you guys think?

The installer absolutely must be an HVAC expert, but that alone is NOT sufficient. The water side / loop side / outside of a geo system is so completely unlike that of an air source heat pump or conventional oil or gas furnace that prior experience and training in that specific area is a requirement. IGSHPA certification is a good starting point, but the installer must have experience with systems in your area to have a reasonable chance of success.

egouin

Thanks for your input. I think I came across the same source on Ebay a few days ago and like you, have been wondering if I could learn enough to sub out the project myself to reduce the costs. I am going to a homeowners workshop in NH that Climatemaster offers about once a month to try and learn more about their systems. I believe I will need a vertical well, closed loop system of about 4-5 tons. It would seem that the heat pump would be 10K or less, and the drilling would be 10K or less. My only real quote so far was 40K. I have a 2700 sq. Ft. ranch which will require the installation of ductwork. If I am right about the unit price and drilling, that leaves 20K for the inside work. That seems awfully high to me.

Let me know how things go for you in your project. I am glad to hear from someone nearby who is experiencing the same kind of issues as I have.

I looked at there website, but $300 is kinda pricey for a online introductory course.

I looked at this website and i didnt see any geothermal systems listed on the product list, just Air source heat pumps, you sure you got two water source geothemal systems? There's a big difference in the efficency of the two types.