Is it typical for geothermal installers to ask for a retainer of some sort to analyze your home to properly size a geothermal system?

I can see it being a great way to qualify a buyers intent, but is it something typical in the industry?

patrick

I hate that practice. Only because there's a guy in my area that rips people off for it. He charges typically $4,000 or so for sizing the system. Then he sells the unit to the home owner, without installation. He refunds the $4,000 if they buy his equipment. So since they want that back, they sign the contract. Then they find out that it doesn't include installation. It's nothing but a crooked practice.

Now, as far as charging a reasonable amount for an accurate load calculation, some do it, some don't. I generally only charge $50-$150 per house plan. That's because I want to get the systems sold. However, it's most likely way too cheap.

Doing a load calc correctly takes 2-4 hours. For a knowledgeable contractor to do it for free only to have it given over to a low-bid hack is unfair to the good contractor. It would be reasonable to charge a couple hundred bucks for one, but structure that charge as a credit toward system purchase.

$4000 seems completely outta line.

Gentlemen wanted $1,000 upfront . Got him to agree to a significantly lower number assuming I did his schlepping around to create an architecture diagram of the house, etc. with all the various window types and walls, and stuff marked appropriately. Basically his position was his time has 'x' value and if he was doing administrative type work he still had to charge his rate. He would still have to come out to do the site survey but could spend a lot less time just spot checking the information rather that having to develop it. He would credit it back on the installation. I don't personally disagree with his approach. Might even say I follow it as an IT Engineer when I pimp myself out and use sub-contractors for less experienced tasks. And it wouldn't hurt me to figure out whats important for analyzing the other quotes.

In any case we haven't started the site survey engagement yet as he has to send me the list of stuff he needs. I'm still deciding how to respond.

I won't do a load calculation for my dealers or anyone else until they get me all the needed info. In fact, we've just developed a form to have them fill out for that info. Of course, a dimensioned plan is part of that.

For $50 you can download Don Sleeth's HVAC-CALC and use it for 30 days. This temporary license for load calculating software is geared toward homeowners. That covers house / zone / room loads only. Additional design work is needed for the outdoor / waterside of a geothermal system - this is not included in HVAC-CALC but you validate many of the bidders specs as well as learn what impact is made with better windows, adding insulation, etc.

I figured to compare two or three quotes and ask questions about how they calcuated load and the various factors, etc. Although I might spring for the 50 for that software.

Any chance you can send me a copy of that form tuffluckdriller so I can compare the info needed, etc.?

pat

That's a tough call for an installer - as someone said you don't want to provide a detailed design that a hack could then take and underbid you, but on the other hand people are generally used to "free estimates" and in some ways it is just a cost of doing business that must be figured into overhead. charging a small refundable fee seems like a good compromise. It doesn't cover the actual cost of the system design (or it shouldn't if they're doing it properly) but it might filter out less serious customers and give people an incentive to buy. $1000 sounds like he is trying to cover his actual cost, which is fine, assuming he knows what he's doing. However, if I was paying that much I would expect to own the design whether or not I purchased the system from him and know details like loop length and configuration, system and pump size, etc.

I've forumed with knowledgeable HVAC guys who won't do a load calc until after they win a job, relying instead on experience to guesstimate the required tonnage. That gets them to within a ton or so. On a many-thousand dollar system job, the few hundred dollar difference between, say a 3.5 ton or 4 ton unit is inconsequential compared with the savings realized by NOT doing load calcs until they are assured of the project.

The same applies to ductwork: the material cost to duct a particular room with a 6 vs 7 inch branch is inconsequential compared to the labor needed to install either size.

Estimate could read in part "furnish and install unit and ductwork of capacity necessary to provide indoor temperatures of x (winter) y(summer) during ASHRAE design weather conditions"

That saves them from either investing in fruitless calcs or offending the customer with an upfront charge for a detailed calc. Such an estimate contains no significant intellectual property to be shopped off to lowball hacks.

Once they get the job they then do careful Manuals J,D,and S calcs.

I quite agree that for $1000 I'd both supply and give up any intellectual ownership of Manuals J, D, and S as well as outdoor details. I'd have some sort of disclaimer (and would NOT stamp the docs) indemnifying me if the info was used by others to install a system

Sounds like a reasonable approach, though not without some risk. What about the loop field? Depending on conditions there could be huge cost differences. I guess as long as you are quoting similar systems in a local area it would probably work.

I agree that for that price, you should own the calcs then.

I don't have that form here at home, but the info is:

-dimensioned plan
-window sizes
-window U-values and SHGCs
-window type
-door sizes
-door types
-insulation type for walls, ceilings, and floors
-insulation thickness for walls, ceilings, and floors
-mechanical ventilation of the home (exhaust, HRV/ERV, none--in our dry climate, HRVs are less required)
-ceiling heights
-North direction on the plan
-# of people occupying the home
-gas, LP, fuel oil, electricity rates
-location (city, state)
-desired inside temp (some like it hot, some like it cold...)
-floor insulation/crawl space/slab insulation
-# and type of fireplaces
-does domestic water need to be included.
-type of loop--vertical or horizontal. This is based on land area available; availability of a driller; rocky or clean soil;
-type and efficiency of equipment to be compared to (80% gas, 90% gas, air source heat pump, etc)


I think this is all of them. If anyone sees something missing, let me know.

If the form is like other load calcs I've seen, somewhere there's an entry for the age and / or general tightness of the house. Then the program figures a value for Air Changes per Hour. Sometimes that can be overridden by a hand entry. The Mechanical Ventilation section is related to that

The form I'm referring to is just an info form for me to use to then do a calculation.