gary1227
New Member
Posts:4
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| 16 Jul 2008 07:47 PM |
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I'm currently building a new home in Glenn Michigan. I have been working with a local Geothermal contractor that has done many systems in the area. He is quoting me on a geothermal system exclusively selling and installing the FHP product. He has recommended a 3.5 ton FHP GS series system with a 4 ton horizontal closed ground loop with hot water preheat option.
My question is whether I should opt for the higher priced 2 stage AP series. The contractor said that the 2 stage systems don't provide enough gain in efficiency on a 3.5 ton system to recoup the added cost. Plus he said that future repair costs would be higher on the 2 stage models.
Any thoughts on this? I am also going to get some info from Water Furnance. Is Water Furnance a much better brand than FHP. They look very comparable to me.
Thanks |
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 17 Jul 2008 10:51 AM |
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I have 2 WF Envision units, a 3 ton and a 5 ton - both 2 stage, variable-speed - with a water-only closed loop. I'd be happy to answer any questions you may have about the Envision units, that I can help with.
Best regards,
Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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TechGromit
Advanced Member
Posts:634
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| 17 Jul 2008 11:10 AM |
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I know Florida Heat Pump (FHP) been around for 20 years, so it's not one of these companies that got into geothermal last year like Bryant. I don't know anything about waterfurnace, but they been around for at least 20 years too. I would say either brand is a sound investment. I need to replace my 18 year old FHP system, I've been trying to decide between the GS and ES 2-stage series, it's a toss up, but I'll proably just go with the cheaper GS series unit. |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 17 Jul 2008 12:11 PM |
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I'm partial to Waterfurnace. I don't think FHP has kept up with the times. My builder had a very bad experience with an earlier house with FHP.
Look hard at Waterfurnace Envision series. Very efficient and quiet. 2 speed systems properly sized run 90% of the time in the lower stage. This makes them quieter and more efficient. Longer run times and lower air velocity provides more even temperature control and better dehumidification in summer.
2 speed works especially well on a zoned system, another way to reduce operating cost and increase comfort. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 17 Jul 2008 01:11 PM |
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My experience with WF manufactured equipment has been superb. I'm particularly pleased that the performance of my Envision units matches up to the advertised specs. I have enough real-time / automated monitoring in place, plus the ability to manually obtain accurate water and air flow numbers, such that I'm confident, quantitatively, that the units are performing to spec. And as a result, I've learned that geothermal HVAC 'is the real deal.'
My 2-stage Envision units never run in 2nd stage, in spite of 100+°F heat here in Dallas (running tstats during the day at 77°). I don't know, though, if my capacity is properly sized or not. If I'm oversized, still, I'm averaging cycle rates of twice per hour during the hottest parts of the day, and inside humidity is averaging 40%. I'm dumping 600 - 700 KBTU per day out into the loop field.
The only negative I have found with WF is obtaining technical information. If you don't have an installer who will willingly answer your technical questions, and/or if your installer is not technically advanced, then it's tough to get technical info on WF equipment. The WF company is structured such that it generally does not want to help the end customer - the company feels that's the installer's job. WF is pretty insistent on this, which I find to be a signficant negative.
Best regards,
Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 17 Jul 2008 01:37 PM |
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Yep, you're oversized, assuming that 100F exceeds a Dallas design day. Doesn't sound like it is a problem, though, since humidity is staying low. The units are more efficient and quieter at the lower stage and you have some headroom if your loop becomes heat soaked or you have a house party or whatever.
I agree with your experience getting tech support out of WF. I did manage to cajole them out of install docs (they used to but quit posting them in their website) since the nearest dealer was 90 miles away. They do want everything to run through the installer, which is as it should be, but the business model fails when the dealer / installer is indifferent to the nuances of a properly installed high-efficiency system.
I've never tried this, but I'm pretty sure Terrasource / geothermaldiy.com private labels WF geo, so it may be possible to get tech docs from them. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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Bill Neukranz
Veteran Member
Posts:1103
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| 17 Jul 2008 01:56 PM |
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I believe I have all of the technical documents (Specification and Installation) associated with the Envision series and the IntelliZone zoning panel (Installation). My challenge is interpretting them (i.e., another thread I initiated yesterday).
Yes, I'm aware of Terrasource. They use to sell private labeled WF units, but, recently (last year or this year) changed to another supplier. They've been slow to change their Web based advertising and resources, though.
Best regards,
Bill |
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Energy reduction & monitoring</br>
American Energy Efficiencies, Inc - Dallas, TX <A
href="http://www.americaneei.com">
(www.americaneei.com)</A></br>
Example monitoring system: <A href="http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043"> www.welserver.com/WEL0043</A>
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gary1227
New Member
Posts:4
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| 17 Jul 2008 02:59 PM |
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Today I'm having my contractor price out upgrading to FHP's Aquarius Series 2 stage system. I'm also evaluating whether to do a zoned system with the 2 stage. I understand that the duct work will be designed to handle the higher speed but will be oversized in handling the air flow in the lower speed mode. Our home is 2300sqft on 2 levels above grade plus an additional 500sqft of finished space on the lower. A seperate contractor will be doing the ductwork so I am planning on setting up a meeting with the geothermal contrator to make sure that the zoned duct work will be engineered to work properly with the Geothermal.
The Aqaurius series is FHPs version of Water Furnace Envision series. I have a call into a local Water Furnace Installer but have not heard back yet to get comparision.
Anybody have the FHP Aquarius Series Installed? |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 17 Jul 2008 10:48 PM |
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Separate contractors doing duct and unit installation is a recipe for disaster unless both a playing from the same sheet of music. You could end up spending deep into 5 figures for a system that is noisy, inefficient, and uncomfortable, while the duct guy and unit guy each blame each other. The fight could go on for years.
I'm not saying you are automatically doomed to failure, but make darned sure all the appropriate design calculations have been done (ACCA Manuals J, D, and S) and are adhered to by both sides as this unfolds.
The buck's gotta stop with someone. Identify that party.
Aquarius vs Envision is the LEAST of your concerns. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 17 Jul 2008 11:06 PM |
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The most accessible unit in MI is Climatemaster supplied by the Behler Young Company (by the way Techgrom they are the manufacturer of the units Bryant slaps a sticker on). Heat Controller/Century of Jackson also sells re-labled Climatemasters.If you are indifferent to brand, go with what your contractor recommends as there is more parity in the market than most would have you believe, and in my opinion the dealer (in most cases) is way more important to you than the product. The biggest difference is often color.
As far as 1 or 2 stage, the higer efficiency, in the projects I sell in the Lansing area, is often less than $100/yr (for heating, cooling and hot water production). If you wish to select a higher end model, do it for the longer warranties, alternative refrigerants, variable speed fan.... not energy savings. Bard in Ohio makes a respectable in expensive single stage R-22 unit with variable speed fan, available to your dealer from Tommark, another Michigan supply house. Water Furnace has protected territories meaning non-dealers have to buy parts from their competitors (not a way to keep repair costs down in the future).
Joe |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 17 Jul 2008 11:14 PM |
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Bryant is an offshoot of Carrier which includes ClimateMaster, so if Bryant is selling geo then yes, its ClimateMaster.
Parity in the market - yes - the leading brands pretty much all use the same major components (compressors, valves, contactors, etc.) so the systems are in fact quite similar.
Installer experience and dedication trumps brandname.
While the 2 stage efficiency addition may in fact be only worth $100 per year, the comfort improvement owing to quieter operation, more even heating and cooling and greater dehumidification likely trumps the meager annual savings. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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gary1227
New Member
Posts:4
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| 30 Jul 2008 09:55 PM |
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Ok, now I'm totally confused. My Geothermal installer continues to recommend a single stage unit with a eer of 17.9 and a cop of 3.8 for 3.5 ton unit. The duct work is being installed with 2 zones for upper and main levels. My house is about 2550sqft on main 2 floors plus another 700sqft of finished area in the basement.
This issue is whether I should upgrade to their best 2 stage unit with 28 eer/4.6 cop in low and 19.0 eer/4.1 in high for about $2000 more or a mid range 2 stage unit that has 21.8 eer/4.0 cop in and 15.5 eer/3.6 in high for abot $1400 more. My installer thinks that the pay back time for the increased effeciency is much too long to be worth the extra money (about 12-15 years with saving of $120-160 yearly over single stage)
I know that the 2 stage systems have increased benefit of quieter operation and better humidity control.
Should I spring for one of the 2 stage models or am I just throwing money away. I do appreciate that the installer is not trying to upsell me but I do want to make the best educated decision and not have any regrets.
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 30 Jul 2008 10:55 PM |
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You've summed up the question...is better humidity control, quieter operation, some energy savings, generally longer warranties and don't forget- R 410 refrigerant worth the extra money to you? If all the models he has to offer you are ok, which best fits your budget and goals?
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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Sk1dm4rk
New Member
Posts:5
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| 31 Jul 2008 01:14 PM |
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Posted By gary1227 on 07/17/2008 2:59 PM
Today I'm having my contractor price out upgrading to FHP's Aquarius Series 2 stage system. I'm also evaluating whether to do a zoned system with the 2 stage. I understand that the duct work will be designed to handle the higher speed but will be oversized in handling the air flow in the lower speed mode. Our home is 2300sqft on 2 levels above grade plus an additional 500sqft of finished space on the lower. A seperate contractor will be doing the ductwork so I am planning on setting up a meeting with the geothermal contrator to make sure that the zoned duct work will be engineered to work properly with the Geothermal.
The Aqaurius series is FHPs version of Water Furnace Envision series. I have a call into a local Water Furnace Installer but have not heard back yet to get comparision.
Anybody have the FHP Aquarius Series Installed? Gary, I just had an FHP Aquarius II (3 Ton) Installed at my home the beginning of July. If there are any questions you may have, I can try to answer them. Regards, Mark |
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gary1227
New Member
Posts:4
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| 31 Jul 2008 01:45 PM |
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Hi Mark:
I'm waiting to get final pricing on the FHP Aquarius II from my installer. He orginally proposed the single stage GS042 model for our house with 2 zones. My installer gave me the option of the ES/AU 2 stage series which is the Aquarius I model but the effeciency gain didn't seam that signifigant over the GS model to justify the extra $1600 or so. My installer is waiting for his distributer to get back with him on pricing for a AP049 model which I would assume will be much more expensive but then it is much more efficient.
Are you happy so far with the Aquarius unit? Is it quiet?
Thanks,
Gary
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Sk1dm4rk
New Member
Posts:5
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| 31 Jul 2008 02:52 PM |
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I am very happy with the experience, as a whole, so far (I was going to say something less enthusiastic as I had to write out the final checks to pay for the system this morning ;-) but the more I think about it I realize that the would not be true. My house has never been this comfortable) .
As for noise level; the unit is about the same volume-wise as the Weathermaker 8000 (Propane) that it replaced. That said, I am getting a little more noise at the vents closest to the unit (I assume from increased flow over the prior unit in part due to the new zoning system that was installed). The vents further away show no appreciable difference than before even with the added flow. Though it is louder in some cases, I don't find it to be obtrusive...its just...a different sound than before.
Regards,
Mark |
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