Looking for a GSHP installer in MD. I got one quote for a 4 ton horizontal DX system for $38k, with no options.  Seems kind of high. What would be the absolute cheapest option for GSHP in the wash/balt area. 

Does seem high. Does it include adding duct in an existing house with no ductwork now? If not, then maybe not so high. Adding duct to a house without it is a massive PITA.

Our tireless DX promoter here will be quick to tell you that DX should be cheapest to install owing to lower earthside tube footages required per ton. That may well be so. Try to get proposals and input from both DX and conventional liquid loop contractors so as to be sure to cover all the bases.

Did the 4 ton proposer actually calculate (via Manual J) that 4 tons is in fact required? I'm not saying 4 tons is incorrect, merely urging you to ascertain that it is in fact required.

Jerry,
There are a few holes in your description to compare prices for you;
How big is the house?
How big is the lot?
Are you vertical or horizontal?
As Engineer asked do you have a duct system?
How many duct systems (how many existing furnaces)?
Do you have additional electrical requirements (i.e. in our area Detroit Edison wants a seperate panel and meter)?
At the end of the day another local contractor (not a guy from MI and FL) will be best to answer your question.
Get detailed estimates that compare apples to apples.
Joe

Apparently I don't need to. Thanks. You did a good job enough. I agree with having water and DX priced and compared. I have known of a few situations when it's been a lower price for water source. (Pond loops sometimes)

I agree with Joe, too. Well said.

Hi all, first thanks for the replies so far. Its terrific to have come across a message board with some very well (pardon the cheap pun) informed GSHP users, and dealers.

How big is the house? ~ 2300 not including a 800 sqft basement which will remain unfinished for the next few years
How big is the lot? Lot size s 10.0 Acres
Are you vertical or horizontal? I'd go for the cheapest option, well drilling is about $10/ft in my area.
As Engineer asked do you have a duct system? Its a new house not yet built.
How many duct systems (how many existing furnaces)? No existing system, willing to do a single unit with damping system for secondary zone.
Do you have additional electrical requirements (i.e. in our area Detroit Edison wants a seperate panel and meter)? No additional reqs.

Unfortunately, i cant find some one to give me a detailed estimate, i.e. materials, ducting, trenching, heatpump unit, electrical hook up, loop piping, pemits etc.

Im all for FAIR profit, though I refuse to subsidize a lazy operation that has to charge rediculous rates because they are too stupid to calculate their fringe, overhead and GA costs well enough to manage a lean and efficient operation.

Heck, I paid $24k for a 4 zone 3.5 ton system here in cheap labor Florida. I supplied the water side (open loop off an artesian well) to boot, so I paid $8k per ton just for the airside.

Why? - in large part 'cause I wanted sheet metal ductwork for good quiet efficient flow - that drove the price up $8k or so - not sure I'd do it again. The system is whisper quiet, cools 3000 SF on low stage (2.5 tons) when it is 95 outside. I expect to heat and cool the house for well under $1k per year.

There are so many hacks in this business that the few who really know their stuff can and do charge a premium. That's why I'm getting into it.

With your lot size, horizontal may be the way to go, despite it's less stable ground temperatures. MD climate is relatively mild.

You likely won't get a detailed estimate for precisely the reasons you cite - providing a detailed estimate breaking out individual prices only invites nit-picking over the cost of every item - no sane contractor wants to go there.

Be reasonable - the contractor able to provide a premium system can only do so by being up on the latest equipment and maintaining a workforce of expert techs to install and service it well. Retaining and maintaining experienced staff requires top pay and benefits as well as continual investment in training. You want your installing contractor to make enough to stay in the business so that 7 years from now when a pump or reversing valve goes out during a January cold snap a tech who knows your system shows up fast and makes it right.

In your desire for a detailed estimate you listed many of the subtasks of installing and commissioning a geo system - but know that in large part you are being asked to pay for what is in fact a designed and integrated system, not just a random bunch of subtasks and components available over the internet.

I'll contract out what I have too... why pay profit on top of profit? Ignorance is the only reason. Has any one here tried one of or heard of anyone installing one of the do it yourself geothermal systems?? Before you guys knock it, I'd save enough to make up for the loss of efficiency two or three times over. 90% of the work is sizing the system, and doing the trenches with proper spacing and depth.

Actually Jerry, the ground loops are relatively easy to calculate, as is the heat load, duct lay-out, wiring sizing etc.
I can't reiterate enough that a closed loop geo system is akin to installing a new drain-field, electric service, furnace and air-conditioner, often a water heater and or duct work simultaneously. The equipment is high end, the man hours could easily pass 100 (depending on the system), and the contractors are generally not garage mechanics. It is also how we make our living.
Frankly I'm amazed at how many people are stunned by the price of these systems.
You might find some of our overhead worthwhile if your system fails on a weekend or holiday.
My father was an automotive engineer and administrator of a modest staff. He only patented a few new products in a half dozen years which by your definition means his employer paid about 250k per design. Of course he also had manage the staff, trouble shoot product problems, attend meetings all over the world, attend continuing education...........

You have a lot nerve to come on this board and insult the professionals who are here answering questions and giving  free advice by calling us lazy and stupid.

Do you refuse to pay the "rediculous" high gas prices?

How about the "rediculous" high medical costs?  Do you refuse to pay them also?


Since you think contractors are lazy and stupid,  why are you even dealing with them.  You obviously place no value on their training and experience.

It is apparent that you view yourself as smarter and more capable,  so you should just buy a do it yourself kit.  I am sure that in the end you will have a great system and save a lot of money due to your superior skills and intellect. 

And then after you know how to install geo systems,  you can go into the business and show people how smart and hard working you are by working for free (fair) and run all of the lazy and stupid guys out of business.

In the business world prices are set by what people are willing to pay.  I know that if I am charging more than what people are willing to pay,  no one will contract with me to do the job.

When I am pricing out a job,  my approach is not to see how little I can charge.  I am in business for one reason only.  To make a profit and  support my family.  I try and maximize my profit on every job along with having happy satisfied customers.

I have been a self employed contractor for 30+ years.   Many times I have chosen not to work for people who have shared your attitude.  Many times I have seen do it your self jobs that were utter failures.   I have a hundreds of happy and satisfied customers who have referred business to me again and again.

If I were truly stupid and lazy, I would have been out of business years ago.  If I had been charging "rediculous" prices, I would have been out business years ago.


The public needs you to jump into the business and save them from all of the stupid and lazy contractors charging  "rediculous" prices.


By the way there is no such word as "rediculous"!    Please learn how to spell so we don't have to see your ignorance displayed in this public place.

Good luck and please let us know how your do it your self project goes.  We will all celebrate your success.

Well said. I wouldn't be getting into this business if I didn't think I couldn't both supply superior, quiet, efficient and durable systems AND make a profit commensurate with my expertise in the former while doing so.

There is much to be said for choosing customers carefully and severing ties with those that don't perceive added value or aren't willing to pay for it. No one wants to give up business but some accounts are best suited for other competing companies - let THEM take a bath dealing with the ridiculously frugal and endlessly whining Mr & Mrs Homer and Mildred Snodgrass...good riddance!

LOL!!!! Great job, Dewayne!

I too wish people could understand the simple concepts of supply and demand. Simple economics theory shows us why prices are what they are. Thanks again, Dewayne for the great post.

Jerry,

I am just south of Baltimore and had a GSHP installed at the beginning of this month. I had three estimates to work with. For my job the best deal turned out to be with Owens Comfort Systems. I also had estimates from Minnick's and Ground Loop.

Contact info:

http://www.owenscomfortsystems.com/

http://www.minnicks.net/index.php/

http://www.groundloop.com/


Owens uses Florida Heat Pump and the other two are Waterfurnace dealers.

I would recommend Owens without reservation. The workers really knew their stuff and went out of their way to make me happy. I know nothing about the other 2 companies, so I cannot comment on them other than to say they were a good bit higher in price.

Good luck in finding someone. Let me know if you have any questions about the process I went through.


Regards,

Mark

Thanks Mark.

I never realized this board was a haven for installers trolling for business, and sounding board for the spewing of propaganda about how HVAC installer prices are so fair.  So fair in fact they never seem to publish list prices for any of their equipment.  They prey on the ignorance of consumers, and they hide information so customers have no idea how bad they are being fleeced.  Honesty begins with openess... Ask some HVAC clown do an open book job for you some time. You'll never find one to agree to it.

Consumers need to look out for eachother... 

Mark,
Are you sure you like Owens?
If you do, jerry's not the only one who hasn't heard a word.

I don't follow you.  Please explain.


Regards,

Mark

List prices are usually available. The problem home owners such as Jerry usually have, is that the system costs more than just the list price of equipment. There are MANY more things that go into a system that home owners just don't get. List price of equipment NEVER includes the supporting parts of a system. If list price of a 4 ton unit is $5,200, that doesn't mean that the system, not the unit, the SYSTEM is just worth $5,200.

It means Joe rather do work for rich idiots who don't care about price.  That's why all these HVAC installers love Geo, because they can do less work and get paid much more.  Who wouldn't like that? 

I don't stand for the lining of the pockets of HVAC installers like some here.  I look out for myself, and other consumers. There are many contractors who rip off consumers everyday.  They could work open book and dispel the myth, but none of the dishonest installers will ever do that, because it will cramp their style of living.

What is it you do for a living, Jerry? Do you make enough to go on vacation? Most HVAC guys rarely, though they should, can afford time and money for any kind of vacation. And it's not just HVAC guys. It's most any type of contractor.

Why should you get paid so much at your job? If it's more than minimum wage, I'm sure you're overpaid.

HVAC installers are one of the most UNDERPAID professionals out there. We who provide comfort and efficiency to consumers, even some like you, are looked at as worthless. We educate ourselves, try to go above and beyond code minimum, and still get comments like those from you. We can't get people like you to pay what the system's worth. People with your attitude are not worth working for.

Just go do as Dewayne suggested and show us all how it's to be done. Go work for nothing. Don't charge for any time spent selling, designing, learning, fixing, upgrading...etc. Just charge minimum wage for the time spent working on a job. Oh, and only make about 2% markup, too. I'm just certain you'll stay in business, have lots of time for family/friends/vacation/time off. You'll be able to really put it to us then. Pay no attention to supply and demand. Don't charge more for any type of intellectual knowledge about comfort. Instead, just charge for your actual installation time. Hope you have a lot of money in savings to use up while you stay in business.

Keep us up to date and let us know how great your installs are going. I'm sure you won't have to work for rich idiots. Nope. You'll get to work for cheap people, who don't put any value in their comfort. Oh, and you won't have to cut any corners, either. You'll be able to afford the extra labor, materials, overhead it takes to go beyond minimum. I'm sure we all look forward to hearing how it goes.

Please let's quit feeding this troll...