ok, As per my question yesterday about costs of geothermal systems,  I'm comparing a horizontal trench closed loop system to a direct exchange freon filled copper loop trench system.  I would also like to know about vertical trenching ie. does it work better than vertical systems?  I would like to know what system costs more and any pros and cons of each system.  So far the only people that don't like the dx systems are the installers that don't put them in.... I don't know if it's just because they don't install them or what,  I just want a honest opinion.  I did have one installer of the waterbased system tell me though that the manufacturers of the dx systems haven't been able to control the loss of lubricant in the copper loop from the pump(?).  I would like to know if theres any truth to that.  Alright thats it for me, I would greatly appreciate any and all info thanks

This topic comes up pretty often - do a search and you'll find a lot of opinions. At the end of the day, both systems can work great when designed and installed correctly, and both can be disasters if they are not. Each has particular advantages and disadvantages that will vary with the application and mindset of the customer.

Independent of water vs. dx, horizontal loops tend to be much cheaper than vertical loops. Depending on your climate and soil vertical loops may perform somewhat better, but generally not enough to justify the added cost (at least in my neck of the woods).

Sorry for the wishy-washy answer, but geo systems are very application specific and these are questions that may have several right answers depending on your situation.

EarthLinked has absolutely no problem with returning the compressor oil back to the unit--as long as their specs are followed. Their specs are more than EASY to follow. There are other DX brands that have had that problem, but EarthLinked's refrigerant controls ensure that it will always have enough oil.

As far as horizontal vs. vertical... On performance, a horizontal usually outperforms a vertical, but only minimally. It is measurable, but the difference is small enough so as to disregard it.

For cost differences, it's very job-specific. Just continue to get estimates and compare them. The biggest thing we all recommend is not whether it's waterbased or DX. Rather, it's that the system in designed, installed, commissioned, sized, etc...CORRECTLY! I'm very interested to know what you find on costs of installation. What's your own experience as to which system is higher priced?

Here are the pro's and cons as I see them ( please feel free to corect)

DX systems pro . no water pump, no antifreeze (needs to be replaced periodicly), I have found consistantly higher eff. , less noise ( back to the no pump thing but worth mentioning) less space taken on the inside of your house, (everything can be outside with exception of the airhandler) Systems are overall simplier and easyier to service

CON- I have heard that there are problems with POE oil viscosity at lower temp's (the solution is simple and resolved ) R-22 the old school refrigerent or its direct drop in replacement r-417 is used utilizing mineral oil. somebody fact check that one for me. ,

water source pro- have ben around since the 70's and still in operation. more versital applications ie radient multiple heads to a single unit . use of 410a ,2 stage and inverter compressors.
 
CON - increased maint cost, longer ground loops , lower eff ( average)

The cost is realy dependent on the installer I will tell you this much the material needed for water source is higher. but that doesnt mean it wont fit your needs better . or have more competitive installation prices in your area.

That's right. The cost depends mostly on the installer.

I work with 2 particular contractors who have very different prices for virtually the same installation. Contractor A averages about $6,500 per ton, installed. Contractor B averages about $10,000 per ton, installed. Contractor A is a single-person company, and has pretty low overhead. Contractor B has almost 100 employees, a very large office/shop, employee benefits, service trucks, etc.... Each of these contractors makes money at what they do, and they both do a quality job. Contractor A lives about 90 miles away from contractor B. Contractor A has relatively few customers he can use as references. Contractor B has thousands of references. Both stay busy, and both have completely different costs. These 2 are far enough from eachother that they don't even compete with eachother.

R-22 is not a CON. It's a very efficient, good refrigerant. There are drop-in replacements for it using the same types of oil.

DX is very good for radiant, too. It does radiant very efficiently, too. With one EarthLinked DX system, I can heat domestic water, heat and chill hydronic water, AND heat and cool air via refrigerant--all the time doing it more efficiently than water source. I do wish there were some way to do a 2 stage, but I don't need to because the EarthLinked product is already so efficient. The 2 stage would be better mostly from a comfort standpoint when coupled with zoning.

Bottom line is that both DX and Water Source are great products. They beat the "fossil fool" systems hands down. My advice to everyone is to price out both DX and Water source. If DX isn't available to you, oh well. Maybe it will be in the future. If you don't want to wait, then go with water source. If water source offers a better installed price, and DX is far overpriced, then go with water source. Whichever you end up installing, just don't do the "fossil fool" system. We know geothermal is so much better. ("fossil fool"--just came up with that today...like it?)