Closed horizontal loop trench sizing
Last Post 31 Jul 2008 10:57 AM by kwebber. 9 Replies.
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kwebberUser is Offline
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29 Jul 2008 12:24 PM

I have been reading this forum for quite sometime and find it very educational and interesting.  About 3 years ago I helped my brother install a 5 ton unit with a closed horizontal ground loop.  We are in central Maine and at the time didn't know anyone else in the area that had done a geothermal system so he basically researched it and we installed it.  I've seen DIY stories on here that aren't favorable, but a long story short, the system works really well and he's extremely satisfied with its performance.  Now I'm going to install one at my home.

My biggest concern at the moment is my ground loop.  We used four foot wide trenches about 7 feet deep with his ground loop (5 trenches about 250 feet long) and placed the 3/4" pipes on the outside edge of the trench.  It worked out well because our father had a large excavator with a four foot wide bucket and his house is located in a large field.  Now at my house, my ground loop will need to traverse through the woods.  I was wondering if anyone would have any input on using a trench about a 1.5 foot wide instead of the 4 foot wide like we used on my brothers.  The purposes being, our large excavator is just too large to fit through the woods without clear cutting the entire area and a smaller one would be easier to sneak through the woods.  I considered a vertical closed loop, but the horizontal would be much cheaper for me since we have the epuipment to use.  I am planning on a 5 ton unit and was considering using the same idea that we used on my brothers for the ground loop, 5 trenches 250 feet long, but only 1.5 feet wide, but worried about the efficiency of it.  Do you think that having the pipes 1.5 feet a part rather than 4 feet will make a huge difference?

Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions?

Thanks.

FarmboyUser is Offline
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29 Jul 2008 08:26 PM
You've asked as good question.  Can't say what effect on efficiency would be between 1.5 ft and 4 ft separation, but here's a chart, http://www.geoclip.com/research.html that shows the increase in heat exchange for a vertical system in which the tubes are kept apart with a clip placed every 10 ft as the tubing is installed.  The separation is only on the order of inches but is enough to yield a 5 degree decrease in loop water temp, i.e., better energy transfer between the tubing and earth, over just sending the U-tube down without spacer clips.  The chart supposedly based on a study by Oklahoma State U and is located on the website of a company selling the clips. 
engineerUser is Offline
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29 Jul 2008 09:04 PM
I'm not sure I trust results posted at an advertiser's website, but it makes sense to separate tubes as much as possible since the water coming up should be warmer / cooler than water headed down
Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
joe.amiUser is Offline
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29 Jul 2008 09:51 PM
Your manufacturer may give you loop design advice.
Distance between the pipes is very necessary to take advantage heat transfer to the earth around it. Pipes to close together would reduce the capacity of your loop field.
Joe
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
FarmboyUser is Offline
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29 Jul 2008 11:14 PM
Joe "Your manufacturer may give you loop design advice". Would that be the eqpt or tubing manufacturer? Dave
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30 Jul 2008 12:39 AM
Posted By kwebber on 07/29/2008 12:24 PM

Do you think that having the pipes 1.5 feet a part rather than 4 feet will make a huge difference?

Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions?

Thanks.

A normal two pipe trench is 2' wide.  Or you can stack the pipes in the trench with 2' separation.    The other option would be to add one more trench.

Any idea how cold your brothers loop gets in the winter?  If his only gets down to 40° then yours might get down to 35 or 30°   which would still work, just not as well.

Having the pipes close together is not a problem as long as you have enough pipe.   In a slinky loop the pipes are very close together,  but the total footage of pipe is more.

Must sense is that by doing one more loop you  would be ok.  If you  add two more you would be more than good.   Pipe is cheap and if you have the eqiupment to dig, then go for it.   At 7 trenches you would still have turbulent flow in each loop, so no concern there.
Dewayne Dean

<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system
kwebberUser is Offline
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30 Jul 2008 08:54 AM
Thanks for your inputs. My brother used a Nordic unit and I'm quite sure that the manual recommended 4 feet apart for the tubes. He has been keep recorded on his temp's and last winter the EWT got down to 32F. The previous winter it got down to 30F. His delta was at about 5 degrees in the middle of the winter. This year we had about 3-4 feet of snow on the ground which I think helped insulate the ground some and the previous year is was just cold with little snow.

I could added extra trenches if I need to, not very easily though. Would there be any advantages to adding an extra loop in each trench or would that not be a good idea. At what point do you have too much volume of pipe to push the water through? Oh, I also have an elevation difference of about 30 feet from the house to the lowest loop. In my mind this wouldn't be an issue, but thought i should through that out too.

Thanks so much for yor time.
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30 Jul 2008 01:03 PM
Adding more pipe in a narrow trench will not gain you much. As cold as your brothers loop got down to, it would be a good idea for you to add at least one more loop, two if you can. As I stated in my last post, with 7 trenches, you will still have turbulent flow which is what you need for good heat transfer.

If you can dig deeper and stack the pipe with 2' separation, it would be better than laying both pipes in the bottom of the trench with 1.5' separation.

Hope this helps.
Dewayne Dean

<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system
joe.amiUser is Offline
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30 Jul 2008 11:07 PM
Dave,
I meant equip. manufacturer. As this is a DIY project, no harm in getting the advice of someone with an interest in it's success.
Joe
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
kwebberUser is Offline
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31 Jul 2008 10:57 AM
Thanks guys. I will be discussing this with the folks at Nordic as well. They were very helpful when we installed my brothers. I think that the extra loops will be a good idea. We enjoy the challenges of installing these and find it very interesting, but try our best not to do something foolish to screw it up. We installed my brothers unit while we were building his house, so it was easier to plan for it. My home exists and I will have other challenges to conquer once I get inside, so you will probably hear back from me in another month or two after I get the ground loop in with some other questions.
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