Seeking expert advice - competing systems
Last Post 19 Aug 2008 02:44 PM by joe.ami. 4 Replies.
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roooooomieUser is Offline
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18 Aug 2008 11:12 AM

Building a new modular house in central MD, and have already planned to install a geo system, I have a few reasonable quotes to work from, now it's time to choose between the two that fit the budget.

I have a quote for a water furnance based system, envision series (split 2 zones NDV026 & NDZ026) with hot water assist.  The waterfurnance is a two stager, excellent warranties.

From the same installer, I have a heat controller (comfort aire) single stage setup (split 2 zones HRV & HSS ) models.  I dont think its fair to discuss price because of regional variations, but lets say the comfortarie is ~ 5K cheaper and has less warranty protection.

The base COP comparison is Waterfurnance 4.2 to Comfortaire 3.5.  Say the averages held true, is 5K worth the .7 advantage in COP over say a 10 year time frame?

Waterfurnace software estimates a total annual heating/cooling/hotwater bill of $1400 using their system.

Is comfortaire equipment the Yugo of Geothermal?  Is it penny wise and pound foolish to install one of these systems and not go the best COP/EER's?

Is the extra 5K just piece of mind, or am I getting a significant improvement in cost savings over time.


tuffluckdrillerUser is Offline
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18 Aug 2008 03:54 PM
Are those COPs actually the case with closed loops? Make sure you're comparing the same numbers is all I'm saying on that.

As far as the waterfurnace vs. comfortaire, the .7 difference in COP is going to be a very small difference when comparing a $5000 difference. Depending a lot on your load, electricity rates, and actual COPs, you MIGHT make up $5K difference in 10 years.
Clark Timothy ([email protected])<br>Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap!<br>www.pinksgeothermal.com
joe.amiUser is Offline
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18 Aug 2008 11:54 PM
rooomie,
I think we've left some things out of the puzzle here. The Comfort-Aire (a climatemaster witha powder coat cabinet by the way out of Jackson MI), is likely an R-22 single stage system vs the Envision which I believe to have R-410. The difference between single and two stage in operating cost for 1 water source unit is often <$150/ year. The 2 stage feature is better for cooling in heating dominated climates as it dehumidifies better.
I offer my customers a choice between 1 and 2 stage all the time at a discount greater than my cost difference. Why? Because if someone is really reaching to afford geo (and I do really want to help folks), they aren't going to get the top of the line at a discount; inversely if someone is shopping for a Cadillac, I'm not required to prune the price down to bare bones. So... his price difference between the two is likely not 5K (assuming we didn't omit details), if you really prefer the Waterfurnace, ask him/her to sweeten the pot. A 2 stage R-410 unit is worth a couple thousand more (due to quieter operation, better dehumidification in heat dominated climates, modest energy savings, refrigerant that isn't to be discontinued, better warranties and minor energy savings).
No matter what, (see oil and gas cost more) the 5K difference likely only takes an extra 2 years to pay for.
Joe
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
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roooooomieUser is Offline
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19 Aug 2008 10:46 AM

Joe & Clark, thank you both for the response, it is very much appreciated. Your knowledge exceeds all of the local Geo vets I have spoken with, and its invaluable to have the opinion of a experts with no dog in the fight.

To follow up, the Geo Link Design Studio report said I should average 3.5 COP with the top end Waterfurnace envision series, and an average EER of 18.6 (bewteen the two zones).  The envision is two stage.  I will have a horizontal closed loop.

I don't have comparable figures for the Comfortaire, but my first guess any efficiency delta would be driven mostly by the the lack of a second stage in the Comfortaire system.

That said, since I'm in an area where heating costs will drive a greater percentage of my energy costs,  how necesary if at all is the two stage? 

As an aside, I will tell you, the Geo Link design studio is an amazing software and if I were not stretching my buget already I would chose Waterfurnace in a heart beat.  It was shocking to see what the percentage of my total energy cost is from hot water, it was greater 1/3.  If anything I will make certain to add hot water assist.  Very slick stuff.

Joe, I can't tell if you were saying the comfortaire equipment by heat controller is the same as climate master?  I was wondering why the HRV024 is not energy star rated, which seems odd.

joe.amiUser is Offline
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19 Aug 2008 02:44 PM
Not sure on the energy star rating, but yes the Comfort Aire would perform as a Climate master GS. While I don't know the model numbers off the top of my head on Com. Aire you appear to be looking at 2 ton units. If that is correct, the operational cost difference between a one and 2 stage unit would be laughable (likely less than $50/ particularly if your using a desuperheater).
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
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