Posted By joe.ami on 09/21/2008 10:11 PM
Again, I can only speak to a heating dominated climate, but 5 year paybacks are conservative against fuel oil or LP and that is not calculating in equipment replacement which is often due within 5 years and always due within life span of new equipment.
NPV's are way more useful in areas where folks buy "it" because they can afford to. Joe, the NPV approach applies to rich and poor people alike.  A geothermal purchase is either a good deal or it isn't.  It doesn't matter if it's paid for up front by rich people or on the installment plan like I did.  The beauty of geothermal is that, even with borrowed money, it is a good deal because you effectively neutralize energy inflation for 20 years with an ultra high efficient system.  In my case, I borrowed all the money for my geo system and after paying the extra mortgage amount each month, I'm pocketing an extra $100 a month from the savings on my electric bill. In my area people with modest means and perhaps no investment strategy are buying geo because they can't afford not to. Fossil's are sucking an extra house pay a month out of people around here that are trying to hold on to their homes. 

Not trying to sound contrary but concerns are regional like everything else in our business. The main reason I'm interested in value added to a home around here is to try to find enough equity for people to finance the systems. Houses are worth 40 to 60% of what they were 2 years ago so equity loans are hard to come by and 15 to 25K systems exceed most common folks savings. Most people have to finance something like geothermal so it is not restricted to your area.  You may be aware of this already but the Electric & Gas Industries Association has teamed up with GE Capital to provide financing for geothermal system installs.  It's unsecured debt, no lien, no equity required in the home, up to $50K loans, up to 20 year terms, and staged funding so the dealer can cash flow the business.  Here's the link if you haven't heard of it http://www.egia.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?VendorID=57&TabID=506 Don't think you're fightin this war alone buddy.  There are alot of folks on your side.  Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac may have used NPV's around here but we can't. We're down to dollars and sense (not a typo).
Again not trying to sound snippy, but the thread was "Don't Wait". I say that because I don't think my neighbors can afford to.  
J

Posted By vhehn on 09/21/2008 9:36 AM
nonsense. i live in south dakota. it doesnt get much colder than that.
there is no need for propane backup. the electric strips will do fine.
sure they will kick on often at 0 or less but it doesnt stay that cold very long.
my hvac bills average about 50 per month. how long will it take to roe an 80k
geo investment saving half of 50 per month?

Posted By Brock on 09/23/2008 12:46 AM
It's funny though, what’s the payback on a traditional A/C unit? What’s the payback on a similar replacement furnace? I know geo has a higher initial cost but this always get me.

Take this for what it's worth but the Appraisal Institute says that for every dollar saved in a homes operating cost increases the home's value by $20.  If this approach has merit, and I don't know for a fact that it does, it would mean a $100 a month in savings would translate into a $24K increase in the home's value.  Given today's energy cost issues and projected increases down the road, I suspect the idea has merit.  I would think the unanswered question is by how much.

Posted By conniepangan on 09/18/2008 2:09 PM
I researched that air source heat pump doesn't work in the extreme cold climate like Northeast. I would definitely go towards this if it's feasible.

Posted By joe.ami on 09/23/2008 11:27 PM
Excellent point on ASHP lifespan TG.
Sure hope it goes well for the manufacturers with R-410 systems and 10 year warranties.
Not sure if people shopping for $800K homes look too closely at energy bills, but people in 150K homes in my area sure are. Seneca is an example of someone who's plans included geo so that he could afford to live in his new home.
Meanwhile a fellow I mentioned on another thread skipped geo because it would have made the generator to large for his 13K sf estate. He didn't care much about the gas bill, in fact when we talked about going open loop as he needed (if I recall) 20 ish tons of excavation, he said no, since having a pond would cost 100K by the time he landscaped it in to his specs (can't have a pond without a boat house, ya know)!
J

Posted By TechGromit on 09/23/2008 11:15 PM

I have one, I'm from New jersey, Atlantic County to be more specific. The unit works perfectly fine, for around $3,500 (at least for my house) you can purchase a do it yourself Goodman kit. But there are no where as effiecent as a Water source Geothermal unit. They fall somewhere between propane and oil/gas in efficency. They generally last around 10 years before the outside compressor needs to be replaced, mine in 8 years old.

What do I think about it? I hate it, i think it's 1/2 my electric bill in the winter, I have two zones, a geothermal system for the first floor and a heat pump for the second floor. But it does work perfectly fine, even in the "Extreme cold notheast climate". newer heatpump models are pushing the up effeiency of the units, but there's a bigger price tag to go along with the unit, better just to stick with geothermal if you can afford it. Any cost/benefit analyst needs to take into account that One Geothermal unit can out live three Air Source heatpumps. 

 

Posted By robinnc on 09/24/2008 12:52 AM
...I think there needs to be more competion in the business of geo to help bring it more in line with tradition!

Posted By geodean on 09/24/2008 9:53 AM


Never go down from competition, probably not. Go down from technology? Probably. I'm inclined to think the units will stay close to their cost but go up in efficiency. As for the loop, I think there's still room for improvements in cost. I seem to recall someone mentioning a bore digging machine that just has a power / pull back line. If enough people start installing geo, someone out there will think of a way to dig a cheaper hole - possibly some kind of roomba of drilling / excavating :). I'm also inclined to think the technology will change, which might change the amount of loop needed. If I was in the heat pump biz, I'd keep my eye out for advances in magnetic heat pumps.

Posted By geodean on 09/24/2008 9:53 AM