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If I do, or if I don't
Last Post 20 Oct 2008 09:41 AM by senecarr. 12 Replies. |
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tuffluckdriller
Advanced Member
Posts:630
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| 15 Oct 2008 06:07 PM |
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We've been developing the argument lately of the "if I do, or if I don't" do geothermal now.
If I do:
-I'll be more comfortable in my home
-I'll have less drafts
-I'll start saving money NOW
-After a payback period (4 years, 10 years, 20 years) it will have paid for itself, and then some
-I'll get it at today's price, instead of the higher price down the road
-I won't have to wait because they can't get to it because of the increased demand
-I can get a $2,000 federal tax credit (and in Utah, a $2,000 state tax credit)
-I can eliminate the risk of fire from my furnace/fossil fuel system
-I'll eliminate the possibility of 'waking up dead' from a Carbon Monoxide problem from my fossil fuel system
-I'll be reducing my carbon footprint now
-Did I mention I'd be more comfortable in my home?
-How about that I can afford to keep it warmer this winter?
-or cooler and less humid in the summer?
(I get to annoy my neighbor with the installation)
If I don't:
-Doing what I've always done will give me what I've always gotten
-I won't start saving on my utility bills
-the price will probably increase the longer I wait, not to mention the waiting list getting longer
-After what would have been a payback period, I'll still have nothing to show for it, except most likely a fossil fuel system that needs to be replaced
-I'll be just as comfortable, or uncomfortable as I've always been
-I'll still just put up with keeping the temp. lower in the winter and wearing a jacket inside the house because I don't like the high bills
-I won't get any tax breaks from my system
-My fossil fuel system will remain in my home, still posing the threat of fire, Carbon Monoxide, and/or explosion
-My carbon footprint from my heating system will be the same, and gradually get worse (as furnaces tend to get dirtier with age)
(I don't get the joy of dealing with a Mrs. Kravitz)
Feel free to add to this list...
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| Clark Timothy ([email protected])<br>Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap!<br>www.pinksgeothermal.com |
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senecarr
Basic Member
Posts:211
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| 15 Oct 2008 07:28 PM |
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You forgot to have if I don't
Then I won't have it on my DIY list of things I could do, so my next option on the difficulty scale is DIY mission to mars, and I'm not sure I want to start work on that yet. |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 15 Oct 2008 10:29 PM |
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If you don't, Joe can have a day off. "go ahead....make my day!....choke that duck....."
Actually noticed Seneca was at work Labor day and last Saturday among others. Apparently people trying to teach a computer how to sort out tax law work as much as geo contractors.
j |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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TechGromit
Advanced Member
Posts:634
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| 15 Oct 2008 11:26 PM |
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Posted By tuffluckdriller on 10/15/2008 6:07 PM
We've been developing the argument lately of the "if I do, or if I don't" do geothermal now.
If I do:
-I'll be more comfortable in my home
-I'll have less drafts
-I'll start saving money NOW
-After a payback period (4 years, 10 years, 20 years) it will have paid for itself, and then some
-I'll get it at today's price, instead of the higher price down the road
-I won't have to wait because they can't get to it because of the increased demand
-I can get a $2,000 federal tax credit (and in Utah, a $2,000 state tax credit)
-I can eliminate the risk of fire from my furnace/fossil fuel system
-I'll eliminate the possibility of 'waking up dead' from a Carbon Monoxide problem from my fossil fuel system
-I'll be reducing my carbon footprint now
-Did I mention I'd be more comfortable in my home?
-How about that I can afford to keep it warmer this winter?
-or cooler and less humid in the summer?
(I get to annoy my neighbor with the installation)
If I don't:
-Doing what I've always done will give me what I've always gotten
-I won't start saving on my utility bills
-the price will probably increase the longer I wait, not to mention the waiting list getting longer
-After what would have been a payback period, I'll still have nothing to show for it, except most likely a fossil fuel system that needs to be replaced
-I'll be just as comfortable, or uncomfortable as I've always been
-I'll still just put up with keeping the temp. lower in the winter and wearing a jacket inside the house because I don't like the high bills
-I won't get any tax breaks from my system
-My fossil fuel system will remain in my home, still posing the threat of fire, Carbon Monoxide, and/or explosion
-My carbon footprint from my heating system will be the same, and gradually get worse (as furnaces tend to get dirtier with age)
(I don't get the joy of dealing with a Mrs. Kravitz)
Feel free to add to this list...
Exactly how does installing a Geo solve Drafts? Isn't that an insulation issue? If the payback period is too long (20 years) you have to really examine the numbers, A 20 year old system is nearing it's End of Life. It's not possible to wake up dead, death generally doesn't don't allow wakeups except under very specific conditions, like in an ER. |
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tuffluckdriller
Advanced Member
Posts:630
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| 16 Oct 2008 12:53 AM |
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Just coining a silly phrase on the 'waking up dead' thing.
The draftiness is not necessarily completely solved by geo, but is greatly reduced. It all has to do with the longer run times and more complete mixing of the home's air. Then, when the unit shuts off, it's not like the furnace that put out too much heat and there is different air to stratify and separate, thereby creating a drafty feeling. |
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| Clark Timothy ([email protected])<br>Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap!<br>www.pinksgeothermal.com |
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conniepangan
Basic Member
Posts:112
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| 16 Oct 2008 09:38 AM |
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If I do now, I can enjoy the benefits of:
1. Having peace of mind of not burning my house down because of burning fossil fuel.
2. Clean air
3. Increasing the home value later while enjoying the comfort now.
4. Reaping the investment while i live in my home.
PS. they already started my house with geo! ripped the ceiling off, put the air handling unit at the attic, started the ducts, the units are in but not installed, the driller will come this week. Yipppeee! |
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senecarr
Basic Member
Posts:211
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| 16 Oct 2008 09:39 AM |
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Posted By joe.ami on 10/15/2008 10:29 PM
If you don't, Joe can have a day off. "go ahead....make my day!....choke that duck....."
Actually noticed Seneca was at work Labor day and last Saturday among others. Apparently people trying to teach a computer how to sort out tax law work as much as geo contractors.
j
Actually I don't teach the computers tax law anymore, that was what I did when I started. Right now I teach computers how to lose accountant's paperless documents, so the accountant has an excuse for why your refund isn't there yet.
I think waking up dead would be a philosophical question about the after life, and if you believe in an afterlife, if it involves sleeping. Gosh, I'd like to think I'd finally get a chance to catch up on sleep when I'm dead. |
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PatrickT
Basic Member
Posts:157
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| 16 Oct 2008 02:31 PM |
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Here is one for the "If I don't"
If I don't invest $40,000 + in a Geo heating system, I could invest in super insulation and several solar water heating panels for my radiant.
Patrick T |
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senecarr
Basic Member
Posts:211
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| 16 Oct 2008 02:45 PM |
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Posted By PatrickT on 10/16/2008 2:31 PM Here is one for the "If I don't"
If I don't invest $40,000 + in a Geo heating system, I could invest in super insulation and several solar water heating panels for my radiant.
Patrick T
It seems if you live the climate where you'd get the most out of solar heating, you'd be more concerned about A/C which solar heating can't run.
You can always spend money on insulation and try to lower your system size need for geo, and thus your cost.
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Bruce Frey
Basic Member
Posts:429
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| 16 Oct 2008 06:13 PM |
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Posted By tuffluckdriller on 10/15/2008 6:07 PM
We've been developing the argument lately of the "if I do, or if I don't" do geothermal now.
If I do:
-I'll be more comfortable in my home
-I'll have less drafts
-I'll start saving money NOW
-After a payback period (4 years, 10 years, 20 years) it will have paid for itself, and then some
-I'll get it at today's price, instead of the higher price down the road
-I won't have to wait because they can't get to it because of the increased demand
-I can get a $2,000 federal tax credit (and in Utah, a $2,000 state tax credit)
-I can eliminate the risk of fire from my furnace/fossil fuel system
-I'll eliminate the possibility of 'waking up dead' from a Carbon Monoxide problem from my fossil fuel system
-I'll be reducing my carbon footprint now
-Did I mention I'd be more comfortable in my home?
-How about that I can afford to keep it warmer this winter?
-or cooler and less humid in the summer?
(I get to annoy my neighbor with the installation)
If I don't:
-Doing what I've always done will give me what I've always gotten
-I won't start saving on my utility bills
-the price will probably increase the longer I wait, not to mention the waiting list getting longer
-After what would have been a payback period, I'll still have nothing to show for it, except most likely a fossil fuel system that needs to be replaced
-I'll be just as comfortable, or uncomfortable as I've always been
-I'll still just put up with keeping the temp. lower in the winter and wearing a jacket inside the house because I don't like the high bills
-I won't get any tax breaks from my system
-My fossil fuel system will remain in my home, still posing the threat of fire, Carbon Monoxide, and/or explosion
-My carbon footprint from my heating system will be the same, and gradually get worse (as furnaces tend to get dirtier with age)
(I don't get the joy of dealing with a Mrs. Kravitz)
Feel free to add to this list...
I have thought about responding to this a few times, but this is how I look at it (and it does depend on what you are compering it to i.e., air source heat pump, gas. oil or electric). When people tell me things like that, it makes me think they don't know what they are talking about or are scammers (and I know that is not the case here...no offense is intended). Some of that list has almost the same feel as an "effective R50" ICF. If a contractor gave me that list, I would probably look for a new contractor. The beauty of geothermal is that is saves energy because it uses the earth's temperature vs. air temperature (for heat pumps) and will be more cost/energy efficient than fossil or electric heat. The savings can be measured in $ and carbon. You MAY convince someone that it is more comfortable than oil heat, but what about compared to radiant heat? or a mini split? or a regular air source heat pump? CO is a valid point IF you are comparing to oil or gas. I think GSHPs are great and I hope to install one in a few years and I hate to rain on anyone's parade, but go easy on the BS. When we do system comparisons, we generally do a side by side scores for first cost, maintenance cost, maintenance frequence, utility consumption (these are generally quantifiable) and for tenant comfort and market acceptance (which are more subjective). Do a matrix with a 1-10 scale and compare it to a variety of other systems. Bruce |
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tuffluckdriller
Advanced Member
Posts:630
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| 17 Oct 2008 11:09 AM |
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It's relatively obvious that many of these listed things are only applicable to some installations, and not others. Not every installation would have these issues to compare to. However, this list is meant to somewhat include all possibilities.
On payback, there are definitely areas of the world that would NEVER see any payback from a geothermal system. They'd never have enough load to justify the expense. I don't mean the list to be BS, rather, to be a list encompassing the 'most of the time' benefits we typically see. |
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| Clark Timothy ([email protected])<br>Geothermal Heat Pumps: Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap!<br>www.pinksgeothermal.com |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 19 Oct 2008 01:00 AM |
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Bruce,
I've mentioned before, the ASHP payback is about the same (term) as GSHP pay back. Of course the initial investment is smaller for ASHP and so is the long term payback. I speak of mid MI.
If you could spend 4K and save 1K/yr thereafter or spend 20k and save 5k/yr thereafter in perpetuity; which would you choose.
The maintenance argument is "BS" as both are refrigeration systems with the same sort of components and if we agree that a broken compressor was (to pick a number) a thousand dollar repair, I'd much rather put that into a system than saved me 4 or 5K/yr than one that saved me 1K/yr.
J |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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senecarr
Basic Member
Posts:211
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| 20 Oct 2008 09:41 AM |
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I'll completely agree about the more comfortable part. The first day seemed really weird not hearing any vents go woooosh and spit hot air up. I also have a "passive" (uses water pressure not electricity) water softener, and one last propane water heater to use up the propane in my tank (can't return it for cash because the bank bought it). The only thing making noise down there? The hot water heater.
I've always hated when people have overpowered muscle cars that make huge amounts of noise. I know that the noise means they are actually operating inefficiently. But now, I'm tempted to go put a wrench or something in the system to have it make some noise. It's silence is almost eery. |
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