I just realized that everyone else puts all of their questions in one thread so I'll do the same.

1.  My contractor tells me Waterfurnace is the best brand.  Thoughts on that?
2.  I could swear I read in one thread here that the homeowner was without heat for four months during the installation.  Then I saw another thread that said the system should only be down for 4-8 hours.  Please tell me the latter is correct?
3.  The proposed site of the vertical loop is on the side of my house.  Someday I hope to put an addition on that side.  Should I make sure the loop is never going to be covered by an addition?  The answer seems like common sense but my contactor never mentioned the need to drill where we will not be building.   
4.  Do I want a unit that takes R-22 or R410A?


At present I have a 3 ton Reems Heat Pump.  The inside unit is 23 years old and the outside unit (our second one in 23 years) is about 13 years old.  My heat pump guy said that we will probably have to replace both inside and out this year.  He estimated the cost to be about $7,000.   Does that sound right or is it possible he meant $7,000 for the indoor unit only? 

I decided to research my options before it becomes an emergency and I stumbled upon the Geothermal thing.

I had a Geothermal installer or designer? come out, he did a load calculation, measured my yard, blah blah blah.  The estimate is $25,000 for a Water Furnace geothermal system using (1) 3 ton NDV038 Envision Series dual capacity unit with an ECM fan and a 10 year warranty  This does not include heater or humidifier.

Thanks for any info!
Talking Dreams

1) WF is good, possibly best, but there are several other excellent brands and technologies. If you like your installer, go with what he / she likes. Install quality is much more important than brand.

2) 4 Months is long. 4 hours is short. A competent installer ought to be able to keep the no heat time down to a minimum. A creative chap could temporarily rig and run a blower and strip heaters during installation. Cost to run could be high, $10-15 per day or more, but you'd have heat.

3) My builder friend routinely puts multiple vertical loops beneath slabs of new houses on very tight beachfront lots. Not something I'd want, but the loops are supposed to last 50+ years, so he goes ahead and plops a million dollar house on top of them.

3a) I'm a bit curious about you having just one vertical loop. That isn't typical.

4) If you were comfortable (quiet, no hot or cold rooms, reasonably good humidity control) with your present 3 ton, then that same capacity in a replacement may well be warranted. $7k is probably in the ballpark for both halves of a conventional air source split. Both sides should be replaced at the same time to help assure advertised efficiency.

5) $25k isn't outta line for a geo, assuming it includes everything. The unit is similar in cost to premium air source equipment. It's the drilling that runs up the job cost.

6) Is your ductwork up to snuff? A majority of duct systems are inadequate. Hate to see you spend $25k and then have the system not produce desired quiet, comfort, and efficiency owing to crappy ducts. Load calculation should encompass every room, not just house. We like geo here on this site and want folks spending the big bucks to reap the full benefits.

7) R22 is being phased out. R410A is the mainstream replacement. Most manufacturers of premium equipment use 410a now. That said, there are good R22 systems out there to be had. 410a runs at substantially higher pressures which may affect long term reliability and equipment life. There are so many (literally hundreds of millions) of R22 systems now in service world wide that we can be confident that compatible replacement refrigerants will be available as R22 production is curtailed. Indeed, some already are.

I have that same WF NDV038. See my thread today about my confused electric utility...done right these systems work well and run cheaply.

Your mileage will vary.

WaterFurnace claims to be the best, but there's recently been some talk about them failing to honor there warranty on some of there units.

My install time took 2 days, 2 1/2 if you could the time it took them to come back and finish the job right, but i had heat (or at least backup emergency heat) after 2 days.

Generally the Ductwork for ASHP is more than sufficent for Geothermal systems.

My New Water Furnace is a R-22 system, I wouldn't be too concerned with the availablity of R-22, i don't think it will be an issue for the next 20 years. R-410a is new and what the life expenancy of the systems is anyone guess at this point. 
  

Thank you for the input!  I live in Maryland.  I asked about the time without heat during the installation, because obviously we will soon need heat full time.  I don’t think I can get two more estimates and still get the thing installed before December.

 

One day they will have to carry me out of this house, which we custom built with much of our own labor.  I don’t expect to live another 50 years but what WOULD happen when the pipes finally go bad and there is a house on top of them?

 

The proposal I got said they would drill one 450’ hole and use 900’ of pipe.

 

I only have 1,660 square feet of heated space so three tons would be right I think.

 

My ductwork has been approved and the installer did measure everything inside and out of the house, including windows etc. to do the load calculation.

A single 450 hole sounds light for 3 tons. I'd want to review the design that supports that proposal.

Definitely seek references - people who've had similar installs by the same contractor and like them a year later.

We would drill 150'/ton in my neck of the woods so 450' at least jives with that.
The question you should answer is how do you intend to heat the addition you're planning? A larger 2 stage appliance coud be utilized now with room for growth.
WF appliances enjoy a good rep in our area. We've had several discussions about them. I share Engineer's opinion that install quality is usually more important than brand.
Good Luck,
Joe

I was recently warned that sometimes installers "short loop".  It's interesting to see two different opinions here on whether 450' is deep enough.

My house is tighter than the average home built in this area.  I have extra wide exterior walls and I bought the best window and door materials that were available back in 1985.  Also, this summer we put a metal roof over our original shingle roof.  When the contractor inspected everything last week, his only recommendation was that we insulate the attic ceilings.  Maybe the tightness of the house is allowing for less looping?

I also just saw in another thread where someone installing a 6 ton unit would save as much as $8,000 if he went horizontal instead of vertical?  My backyard is out of the question because there are two drainfields in it.  My front yard has about 70' x 150' of unused area.  The installer said he could probably do horizontal loops but that it would really tear up my yard.  I had asked him to give me a price on the two methods for looping but he has not done so yet.  For a lot less than $8,000 I could certainly have my yard repaired to my satisfaction.

The question then becomes, if my whole front yard is full of looping, will I be able to follow through on my plan to install two large oak trees in the front yard?  The trees would definitely have to go in the same area where the loops would go.

Thank you all!

Talking Dreams
PS  With the help of the information in this forum, I feel infinitely more comfortable with my decision to invest in a geo system.  If I put the thing in and it works as planned, I'm going to become a rabid convert that hounds everyone I meet to go geo.

Joe has done much more of this than I have. We use more footage per ton in Florida. Length needed is highly dependent on local conditions. Just make sure what is proposed is known to work in your area. Contractor should be able to supply you with happy references.

Loop length PER ton is independent of house tightness. House tightness reduces system tonnage.

Not sure about loops and trees. I've had a water line break twice from root pressure. On the other hand horizontal loops may (perhaps should) be able to be placed deep enough to stay below roots. Different species of trees root differently. My waterline was only a foot or so below grade.

For the trees, it's not just an issue of breaking loop lines, but if the tree will survive.

There is the possibility that the ground temps around those roots won't be good for the tree, and possibly kill them.

The tree is the question. Extreme temperatures of looping, would have roots migrate away. If they have no place to go the tree will be impacted.
I never suggest vertical where horizontal will do because of the price difference. I would seek the opinion of another installer if the one you are talking to did not even suggest it.
J