Heat pump reliability and back-up heat
Last Post 10 Nov 2008 09:49 PM by joe.ami. 7 Replies.
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joe.amiUser is Offline
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09 Nov 2008 11:55 AM

Many folks new to geo are often suspicious of realiability of the "new" heat pump technology. One of the manifestations of this suspicion is the frequent requests to leave fossil units in service with new geo systems. 
A family friend who added an addition and geo to his home this year has multiple wood stoves that he uses. He wanted to leave his propane furnace in service as well.
Those of us who install geo need to do a good job of ferreting out the reason folks want multiple heating systems in place.
The first question I ask is why. In our area we have many deplorably aging electric grids that may suffer power loss for days at a time. There fore some folks are concerned about extended power loss. While this may be important for some retro jobs,  new construction homes are so well insulated, in some cases, that you can heat them with a match (or perhaps a few portable electric heaters or a propane fireplace).
The second question I ask is what they use for back-up heat with their existing furnace. Since there is generally more to break on a fossil furnace, they are more likely to leave a customer in the cold. Futhermore, as we put auxiliary heaters on every geo we install, my customers already have back-up heat built in.
In spite of the extremely laborious installation, repairs on geo systems are by and large no more complicated than conventional equipment (and less frequent), so end consumers who insist on fossil back-up with geo and an auxiliary electric heater are suffering from a lack of confidence in our product or our competance. They also may pay more to condition their home as electric coils do not always fit with a fossil furnace and A-coil (and gas/oil furnaces can not operate at the same time as this sort of geo system).
I still have the occasional split system install because of the electricity concern, but most customers with a little extra education determine that this is uneccesary. My friend decided to purchase the larger generator so he never has less than 2 sources of heat, wood and geo. At least he trusted me enough not to insist on 4 heating systems (geo, wood, electric and propane). :)

Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
Palace GeothermalUser is Offline
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09 Nov 2008 12:14 PM
Well said Joe.

The public perception of geo can be quite humorous at times. We had a booth at a green building trade show yesterday. People would say things like " I would want my house warmer than 55° "..." My house is in the mountains , so this won't work".... " I heard that your power bills go up " ....." Is this a new product this year ?'
Dewayne Dean

<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system
joe.amiUser is Offline
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09 Nov 2008 12:25 PM
I like those questions and hear them as well, the other is "I heard you must have a back-up heater to make it warm."
One of the illustrations that helps me get a customers head wrapped around geo is to explain that you absorb "heat energy" from the ground and then add it to the "heat energy" already in the home. For some reason that is a more easily digestible explanation of how a relatively modest drop from EWT to LWT makes 70* air.
J
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
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engineerUser is Offline
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09 Nov 2008 07:29 PM
Back when I lived in the north and ASHPs were relatively new (and problematic) I heard of contractors who would 'fix' complaints of cold blow by paralleling one of the strips along with the system compressor.

Hard on the light bill, but oh well.

Just as modern cars with Diesel engines remain hobbled by GM's Diesel debacles of the 1980s, so too are modern geo units handicapped by bad memories of early primitive ASHPs deployed in climates too cold for their own good, also back in the 1980s.
Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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09 Nov 2008 11:17 PM
I think it's human nature to be cautious of change. We are uncomfortable with the unknown. I live in CT and have an oil fired steam heat system in my house. I'm installing a geo system, and I will not be removing my oil fired system because of all the work involved with removing it, and if I decide to sell, some people may be scared of a geo system. In time as fossil fuel prices continue to rise, the go green movement continues to gain momentum, and consumers are educated, this will change.
In my town of over 11,000 homes I was the second person to put up Photovoltaic Panels, and I believe there is one new house being built with geo and I'll be the first retrofit. On Nov. 8th the town had our 2nd Green Sumit Fair and they had a good turnout from what I could see. Education is the Key, and it will take time.
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10 Nov 2008 09:17 AM
I had to explain the house can be warmer than the ground loop to someone as well. I think most people have relatively little thermodynamics in science classes, so the thought is, you can't move hot to cold, you have to make hot. I told the person well, if you couldn't heat the inside above the ground loop, it would also mean air conditioning could never work because it moves the hot from your cooler house outside. I also told the person it's a lot like how fridge works, if you ever feel the bottom vent of a fridge, the air is relatively warm - it's just a matter of in the summer my house is the fridge and in the winter the loop outside is the fridge and my house is hooked up to that bottom vent.
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10 Nov 2008 11:53 AM

The Refigerator is a good analogy. No one questions how the magic refigerator works, but the process is exactly the same, just on a larger scale.  that's usually where I begin when I'm trying to explain Geo systems to someone.   

joe.amiUser is Offline
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10 Nov 2008 09:49 PM
PJC, steam boilers are less common around MI, but curiously where I started as a self employed contractor (there's plenty in Detroit). For those who aren't in New England, a steam boiler would be way scarier than a geo heat pump. Show someone your utility bills vs oil burned and I think you'll be able to sell the house without the boiler (lots of folks still like the radiators in old homes though). Interesting but no doubt true that some would trust the 150 year old technology of a steam system more than a modern geo.
Perception and education are definately influenced by geography.
Sounds like a lot of you are spreading the word.
J
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
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