Thinking about a Heat Pump, Detroit
Last Post 24 Dec 2008 07:55 AM by engineer. 13 Replies.
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jaredUser is Offline
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19 Dec 2008 11:10 PM

Hi I was just trying to get some input on a water to air Geothermal Heat pump. Last year it cost me about $4500 for propane. I have a 3800 sq ft house on 10 acres, an a neighbor with a backhoe & bulldozer.

Here are some of my stats.

Detroit area
20 year old 2 story 3800 sq ft with 4ft crawl space and pool 
existing furnace 80% efficient 110,000 or 120,000 btu no a/c, down draft 1st floor
30,000 btu blue flame space heater in Great Room 1,000 sq ft with 4 heat registers to furnace
Old 90,000 btu furnace was better and didn't blow the drapes around when it came on
High water table mostly sand, sallow well around 10ft for water. Dig 4ft an you hit water.
Propane $2.70 November
electric .08 cent kWh

I am not loaded the only reason I have such a big house is because I spent my childhood building it with my father instead of going to Disneyland.

Some of the question I have are.

Is it even possible to heat my home with just a Geothermal heat pump or should I consider a split system with a propane furnace?

In the Great room I have 2 section that could be used for radiant floor heating, the weight room and entry way. Both are on a slab an about the same size 12ft x 12ft x 2= 288 sq ft, there is 4 heat registers in the room. Is 288 sq ft of radiant floor heating enough to replace my 30,000 btu space heater?

Will my existing duct work?

I would like to use a variable speed blower is that possible? Noise is an issue.

Could I use my pool in a hybrid loop system for cooling the house in the summer?

What loop system is best for heating in my situation? I am considering a closed loop at 10 to 12 ft deep, length is not an issue plenty of room here.

Could I use my existing furnace and just add a air handler?

How much would it cost to install?


Thanks for your input.

Palace GeothermalUser is Offline
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20 Dec 2008 09:49 AM
Posted By jared on 12/19/2008 11:10 PM

Hi I was just trying to get some input on a water to air Geothermal Heat pump. Last year it cost me about $4500 for propane. I have a 3800 sq ft house on 10 acres, an a neighbor with a backhoe & bulldozer.

Here are some of my stats.

Detroit area
20 year old 2 story 3800 sq ft with 4ft crawl space and pool 
existing furnace 80% efficient 110,000 or 120,000 btu no a/c, down draft 1st floor
30,000 btu blue flame space heater in Great Room 1,000 sq ft with 4 heat registers to furnace
Old 90,000 btu furnace was better and didn't blow the drapes around when it came on
High water table mostly sand, sallow well around 10ft for water. Dig 4ft an you hit water.
Propane $2.70 November
electric .08 cent kWh

I am not loaded the only reason I have such a big house is because I spent my childhood building it with my father instead of going to Disneyland.

Some of the question I have are.

1)  Is it even possible to heat my home with just a Geothermal heat pump or should I consider a split system with a propane furnace?

In the Great room I have 2 section that could be used for radiant floor heating, the weight room and entry way. Both are on a slab an about the same size 12ft x 12ft x 2= 288 sq ft, there is 4 heat registers in the room.

2) Is 288 sq ft of radiant floor heating enough to replace my 30,000 btu space heater?

3) Will my existing duct work?

4) I would like to use a variable speed blower is that possible? Noise is an issue.

5) Could I use my pool in a hybrid loop system for cooling the house in the summer?

6) What loop system is best for heating in my situation? I am considering a closed loop at 10 to 12 ft deep, length is not an issue plenty of room here.

7) Could I use my existing furnace and just add a air handler?

8) How much would it cost to install?


Thanks for your input.

I have numbered your questions so that I can respond.


1) yes most geosytems are designed to be the only heat source with a small back up electric heat strip for the really cold temps.

2) can't answer this one.  It depends on how close together the pipes are in the floor and what kind of heat loss the rooms have

3) maybe  on site inspection would be needed

4)variable speed blowers are available on heat pumps

5)possibly.  There is a poster on these boards who uses his pool.  The size of the pool and the cooling load of the house  will determine if it will work.

6) if you have water table at 5', a closed horizontal loop would be the way to go.  If you can get 10 ' deep with out caving in you would have a great system.  5' deep would work satisfactorily.

7) yes,  this is what is called a split system.  It would be an option for you.  Again an onsite inspection would be needed.

8) If you were to hire a contractor, your install cost would probably  be between $25,00 to $50,000.  There are too many unkowns  variables  for me to narrow the range.  An onsite visit by a installer could give you a better idea,

Hope this helps

Dewayne Dean

<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system
BrockUser is Offline
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20 Dec 2008 11:32 AM
Jared is it an indoor pool or outside, how many gallons? Either way you can use the pool as a heat dump essentially getting either free pool heating or free house cooling. The catch is you will likely need more house cooling than the pool will need heating in the middle of the summer, but if it's outside you could just leave the cover off. In the spring / fall you will need more pool heating then the house needs cooling.

It does get a bit tricky as to what has priority, the house cooling or the pool heating. Ours is set up so the pool has to call for heat AND the house has to call for cooling to turn on. I can manually override it either way, and dump cooling to the field.
Green Bay, WI. - 4 ton horizontal goethermal, 16k gallon indoor pool, 3kw solar PV setup, 2 ton air to air HP, 3400 sq ft
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20 Dec 2008 01:27 PM
Its not so much the priorities, I am sure they would change. What I was trying find out would there be an advantage to switching to the pool in an effort to increase the systems efficiency. The concept would be a sallow loop and deep loop. Plus taking the chill off the pool in the spring. It is an out door pool 16x32x4= 15360 gal. Given the potential placement of the loop it would only be a couple of valves and under 100' of hose.
 
What I was considering was water furnace envision split outdoor system an adding a set of coils to my existing XE 80 112,000 btu trane furnace then later upgrading the furnace. Upgrading the system as funds became available.
 
I am a skilled tradesman so when I am working I dont have time to spend my money, and when I not all have is time an money, an usually occupy my time with working on my house.I would like to do the loop myself by renting a trencher or borrowing my neighbors backhoe. In the future I am considering building a 4 car garage with a guest room upstairs. Is there any problems with overbuilding your loop for future needs?
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20 Dec 2008 01:42 PM
Posted By jared on 12/20/2008 1:27 PM
 Is there any problems with overbuilding your loop for future needs?

No problem at all.
Dewayne Dean

<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system
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20 Dec 2008 02:47 PM
Do you mean to put the loop around or near the pool to put the heat there? If so I wouldn't suggest that because of the plumbing around the pool and potentially disturbing the support around the pool as well. If you going to dump heat to the pool I would suggest using a heat exchanger on a pool return line.

Honestly the reason I got in to geothermal was to get rid of 50 therms a month of natural gas heating the pool / hot tub. I did have a marine A/C unit in our last house that heated pool water and cooled air. It worked fine for the 3 months of cooling we have, but other than that wasn't cost effective.
Green Bay, WI. - 4 ton horizontal goethermal, 16k gallon indoor pool, 3kw solar PV setup, 2 ton air to air HP, 3400 sq ft
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20 Dec 2008 04:01 PM

No I would be using the existing plumping of the pool. I forgot that I would be dealing with a closed loop system.  The concept of using the pool would require another piece of equipment. I like your thinking, I'm sure in a new construction situation you could incorporate tubing into a concrete of a underground pool, but I consult a engineer before attempting that one.

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23 Dec 2008 08:57 AM
I heartily recommend contacting Joe at AMI for an estimate. I'm outside of Ann Arbor (little bit North and West) and had him install mine. He's been a very helpful member of this message board, but it looks like he isn't on here much lately with how busy he's been.
bgillettUser is Offline
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23 Dec 2008 01:11 PM
I second Senecarr's recommendation.  Joe just finished up my system - 5 ton retro fit w/ all new duct work. He did a great job. He is open to suggestions and he is very flexible. He worked with me on designing a system for my indoor pool, but when it ultimately was beyond my budget he had no problem agreeing with my idea that maybe I should go with an outdoor wood boiler. I am just shy of Saginaw county and he didn't have any trouble coming up here (multiple times) so I'm sure you are within his range.  He was just here yesterday and I think he is finally getting caught up so I"m sure he will be on the forum more in the near future.


jaredUser is Offline
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23 Dec 2008 02:21 PM

Thanks for the recommendations, I will have to check him out. Ann Arbor is only 25 minutes away from my house. Are there any other contractor in the MI area that I should consult?


So do you have a spilt system? I imagine that my system would be similar. How did I handle are latest cold snap?

bgillettUser is Offline
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23 Dec 2008 09:33 PM
We don't have a split geo system. We have geo for the main house and a O.W.B. for the pool to heat both the water and the air. We found that it was economical to heat the pool water with geo, but we have a very large enclouse (50x25 w/ 15 foot ceilings) with lots of glass (10 sliders and 16 skyligts) and the numbers didn't work out for the air so we went a different route.
engineerUser is Offline
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23 Dec 2008 10:36 PM
O.W.B. ?
Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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23 Dec 2008 10:43 PM
O.W.B. = Outdoor Wood Boiler
engineerUser is Offline
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24 Dec 2008 07:55 AM
Thanks.

I believe this is the first intersection I've ever encountered between the world of Three Letter Acronymns (TLAs) and burning wood for heat.
Curt Kinder <br><br>

The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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