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Cold Snap coming - design question
Last Post 14 Jan 2009 10:13 PM by joe.ami. 9 Replies.
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engineer
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2749
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| 10 Jan 2009 11:38 PM |
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The next 3-6 days look to bring a severe cold snap to most of eastern
half of US, and probably most of southeast Canada. In addition, we are
presently attempting, here and at geoexchange to assist several
folks with some or all of undersized, short looped, or poorly ducted
geo systems.
Given that forecast I have a system + loop design question for the pros in heating dominant areas:
Please comment upon, clarify or refute the following two-part design statement:
It is acceptable, indeed typical for a system to be sized such that on
days at or below winter design temps, and especially during January
cold snaps, moderate use of auxiliary, backup, or stage 3 heat is
expected.
It is NOT acceptable for the loop to be designed or installed such that
the system compressor EVER cuts out on low EWT (entering water
temperature). In other words, the loop has to support virtually
continuous stage two operation over a period potentially lasting
several days without EWT dipping below the cutout temperature (15 deg F
for Waterfurnace Envision, probably similar for other major brands).
As EWT decreases during a cold snap, system capacity decreases at a
time when building load is at maximum - it is the role of aux heat to
make up the difference for those few days. However, as long as EWT
stays above cutout, the compressor keeps running and all three stages
contribute to meeting the heating load.
If I'm wrong about the above and it is expected for geo system
compressors to drop out on low EWT during cold snaps the only
alternative I see is for aux heat to be sized and wired to meet the
entire house load at temperatures at or somewhat below design
temperatures. Is that common practice?
I've posted this at geoexchange as well just to catch a wider audience - don't bother to reply on both forums unless you feel like doing so...
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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geo fan
 Basic Member
 Posts:408
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| 10 Jan 2009 11:57 PM |
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I would conclude the obvious , that both statements are true for the most part The sizing of aux becomes more critical with the more it would be needed In other words if 99.9% of the time your aux heat would not be turned on and it was installed as a fail safe in case your system goes down or to run off of a generator in power outs sizing it close to the load is reasonable If its used as supplemental heat and controlled by automatic means it should be sized as small as possible to decrease the % of 1 cop increasing the net cop at that time , likely most truths would be in the middle The only time a properly designed system would shut down on low water temp would be post construction if the contractor ran the system with the doors open (basically ) we all know they do, that statement is well outside my expertise but I believe it to be true |
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Palace Geothermal
 Veteran Member
 Posts:1609
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| 11 Jan 2009 12:02 AM |
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Posted By engineer on 01/10/2009 11:38 PM The next 3-6 days look to bring a severe cold snap to most of eastern
half of US, and probably most of southeast Canada. In addition, we are
presently attempting, here and at geoexchange to assist several
folks with some or all of undersized, short looped, or poorly ducted
geo systems.
Given that forecast I have a system + loop design question for the pros in heating dominant areas:
Please comment upon, clarify or refute the following two-part design statement:
1) It is acceptable, indeed typical for a system to be sized such that on
days at or below winter design temps, and especially during January
cold snaps, moderate use of auxiliary, backup, or stage 3 heat is
expected.
2) It is NOT acceptable for the loop to be designed or installed such that
the system compressor EVER cuts out on low EWT (entering water
temperature). In other words, the loop has to support virtually
continuous stage two operation over a period potentially lasting
several days without EWT dipping below the cutout temperature (15 deg F
for Waterfurnace Envision, probably similar for other major brands).
3) As EWT decreases during a cold snap, system capacity decreases at a
time when building load is at maximum - it is the role of aux heat to
make up the difference for those few days. However, as long as EWT
stays above cutout, the compressor keeps running and all three stages
contribute to meeting the heating load.
4) If I'm wrong about the above and it is expected for geo system
compressors to drop out on low EWT during cold snaps the only
alternative I see is for aux heat to be sized and wired to meet the
entire house load at temperatures at or somewhat below design
temperatures. Is that common practice?
I've posted this at geoexchange as well just to catch a wider audience - don't bother to reply on both forums unless you feel like doing so...
I would agree with #1 , #2 , #3 For me it is completely unacceptable for the heat pump to ever cut out because of low loop temp. I see this as a total screw up on the part of the system designer / installer. I am quite distraught over the number of homeowners who have spent tens of thousands of dollars on systems which they bought with the understanding that they would save money on their heating bills and be more comfortable, only to find out that now they are paying more than they ever have and their house is colder than it has ever been. Then for the dang installers to have the balls to say : " your system is fine, our computer says that you have nothing to worry about. It isn't our fault that your power bill is more than your gas bill used to be. Wait a year , maybe it will get better" Sorry to rant, but all of this really bothers me.
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Dewayne Dean <br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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engineer
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2749
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| 11 Jan 2009 12:24 AM |
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We are in danger of repeating the mistakes made with alternative energy during the Carter administration - huge federal subsidies encourage rapid uptake of various technologies, creating a vacuum between demand and competent suppliers. Hacks and charlatans rush in to fill the gap and shortly the whole industry gets a black eye that persists for decades to the detriment of all.
No response yet from WF to my scolding earlier this week - not a good sign. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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waterpirate
 Basic Member
 Posts:467
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| 11 Jan 2009 10:11 AM |
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I know you would like a response, but do you really think they can address a scolding without getting tottally tangled up in "corporate speak" that means and equals nothing? I agree that we as competant people need to safegard the rest of the public against the hacks and charlatans.
We had a meeting on Friday to spitball where do we go from here to combat the hacks essentially, that are leaking into our market. We came up with education. Completely unbiased education, nothing but the facts for the public. Regardless of whether we are invoved with the project or not to try and bolster up the failures.
Dewayne you forgot one of my favorites: " You need to add insulation, to make up for my design mistake"
Eric |
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| Eric Sackett<br>www.weberwelldrilling.com<br >Visit our Geothermal Resource Center! |
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Masoud
 Basic Member
 Posts:180
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| 11 Jan 2009 11:12 AM |
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I am not a pro, but I still make a comment on # 4.
If the compressor stops for low EWT or ANY reason, aux heat will become emergency heat. I, as an occupant of my house, expect to have adequate heat, even if the compressor quits during design days. To me it is just a matter of common sense, not a design issue. It is an available option. I would ask the installer to include it, and off course I pay for the cost. Adequate emergency heat is an inexpensive insurance policy. I can sleep better having it.
Regards, Masoud |
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waterpirate
 Basic Member
 Posts:467
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| 11 Jan 2009 01:21 PM |
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Masoud,
Agree 100% with emergancy/backup as a contigency, but not to supplement operation without a failure or fault. Eric |
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| Eric Sackett<br>www.weberwelldrilling.com<br >Visit our Geothermal Resource Center! |
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Farmboy
 Basic Member
 Posts:356
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| 11 Jan 2009 11:51 PM |
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Eric, Kudos for trying to figure out how to deal with a seemingly growing problem, incompetent installers. It shows you care about your profession and your industry. I wonder if an HVAC company could just specialize in fixing bad installs by others and make a profit?
Figure out how you'd educate the public? Provide sample specs for quality of installation, duct, etc.? Regular radio/TV public service announcements? Summarize for homeowner's what basic expectations should be (after answering Engineer's questions above) and how they can be included in a Request for Bid?
Obviously homeowner's just want the system to make their interior's comfortable, but they may need assistance in figuring out what comfortable is for them. What they don't want is to be uncomfortable and for operating costs to be substantially greater than their expectations.
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engineer
 Veteran Member
 Posts:2749
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| 11 Jan 2009 11:58 PM |
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Good back and forth - this is what I'm after
Masoud - I have no major beef with supplying enough strips to meet load alone in a true emergency (NOT as a bad design bandaid), - strips are cheap. I don't like the loss of blower static they cause, but that's a minor gripe that should probably be ignored in cold climates.
A much bigger potential problem is that providing power to 20+ kw of strips may not be cheap since it will necessitate an expensive electric service upgrade for many houses. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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joe.ami
 Veteran Member
 Posts:4377

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| 14 Jan 2009 10:13 PM |
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I agree with your design criteria. I would like to add a few points; different designs and designers approach heating differently. Also many houses have different conditions, particularly in retrofit. So while we shoot for most of 100% heating satisfied by geo there are many reasons that we get closer to low 90's on some retro's (most often duct sizing and added cost v savings). The 100% emergency heat operation is nice, but an additional 50 amps of required service in some cases may not be economical. Home owner experimentation may also affect ground and loop temperature when aux coils are dis-abled. Job site and budget restrictions could make lower design temps better than no geo at all. Extreme weather (a non issue in fossil apps) as we're having now in MI combines extended low temperatures with snow cove impedeing solar ground temp gain, could put EW temps below freezing. I agree with Dewayne that some are not competant and that local experience and contractor knowledge trumps software. The greater number of retro jobs, home owner design aid (over-faith in internet design packages vs regional installer knowledge) and poor ducting of the spec houses built in boom years all could contribute to conditions other than desired. For our part a recent buyer called this morning to let me know that he was 4 degrees short of his set-point. Turns out the electrician forgot to throw the breakers on the aux. coil. Not 1/2 bad without auxilliary heat. Joe |
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Joe Hardin www.amicontracting.com We Dig Comfort! www.doityourselfgeothermal.com Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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