kiphorn
New Member
Posts:40
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| 16 Jan 2009 06:48 AM |
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Earlier this week I noticed that there was a lot of condensation on the geo pipes and on my basement wall where the geo water lines enter the house. The water was actually dripping off the pipes and from the walls. My basement is unfinished and the walls are Superior Walls. The water is collecting on the concrete top above the individual cavities in the wall. The basement temp is around 54.
I started my old dehumidifier but it keeps freezing up so the condensation is still there. The condensation is only appearing within 10' of either side of the entry point which leads me to believe that it has to be related to the geo installation. There's some condensation on the pipe closer to the unit but nothing near like what I'm seeing at the entry point.
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| Kip Horn<br><br>Tranquility 27 (June 2008) |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 16 Jan 2009 08:15 AM |
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Geo lines' temps are almost certainly well below basement air dewpoint for most if not all winter. Old dehumidifiers typically ice at 65 or below. Newer ones can handle 40-42 deg F via a defrost cycle, but they are quite inefficient in that range, and probably will not succeed in bringing dewpoint below geo loop line temps.
Dehu basement only as necessary to maintain < 60% RH
Carefully insulate geo lines with closed cell insulation such as Armaflex. Glue slits and joints of insulation so air can't get to geo lines |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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kiphorn
New Member
Posts:40
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| 16 Jan 2009 08:38 AM |
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The installer did insulate the pipe but there are gaps and the insulation is only about 3/8" thick. The joints were sealed but some have opened up. They didn't use Armaflex. It looks more like the pipe insulation you can buy at Lowe's.
I'll have to see if I can calculate the dew point to see if that is what is going on.
The grade on the side of the house where the geo enters the basement slopes down to the back of the house. The walls at the back of the basement are above grade. The geo enters below grade but runs up the wall to the ceiling. The area of the wall that the water is condensating on is above grade so while there is minimal insulation in the Superior Walls, the top of the wall is a layer of solid concrete which has to be pretty cold right now.
Hows this sound: Cold concrete, high RH and a low dew point= condensation
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| Kip Horn<br><br>Tranquility 27 (June 2008) |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 16 Jan 2009 08:42 AM |
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Is the wall that is condensating, the only part of the base walls exposed to the elements?
j |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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kiphorn
New Member
Posts:40
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| 16 Jan 2009 09:20 AM |
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The entire back is exposed and half of the wall where the geo enters. Condensation only occurring on the wall at the geo pipe.
I spoke to the installer and he's sending a crew to rework the insulation on the geo pipe. We'll see if that helps. |
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| Kip Horn<br><br>Tranquility 27 (June 2008) |
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Brock
Advanced Member
Posts:599
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| 16 Jan 2009 01:03 PM |
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I wonder if the cement wall is not insulated on the outside allowing the cement to become much cooler thus causing the condensation. Maybe the wall was initially insulated and they pulled it off where the geo lines enter and never put it back on and simply backfilled.
I would add a fan blowing on the wall; it would reduce moisture and dry it out and likely warm up the wall again reducing moisture. I wonder if it is a lack of insulation, if you could spray foam the wall from the inside. |
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| Green Bay, WI. - 4 ton horizontal goethermal, 16k gallon indoor pool, 3kw solar PV setup, 2 ton air to air HP, 3400 sq ft |
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geo fan
Basic Member
Posts:408
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| 16 Jan 2009 08:43 PM |
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Wouldn't do that , unless you could garantte 0 air infiltration , do like the idea of Rigid insulation removed or damaged when concrete drilling took place . this is a melon scratcher , dehumidify , isolate and ventilate , some how make the wall warmer . No good options . I wonder do you know how close the field is to the home? |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 18 Jan 2009 01:08 AM |
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A troubling thing is your lack of history with the unit. Is the problem inherent or a result of abnormal low temperatures? Let us know what your installer concludes.
J
PS thought the Lions showed great pride in the second half of the Rose Bowl. |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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kiphorn
New Member
Posts:40
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| 26 Jan 2009 04:10 PM |
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I left home on 1/17/09 when it was 0 degrees and there was condensation on the walls. Returned from 5 days in Florida to 35 degrees and the condensation was gone. It's been 20-25 degree the last few days and still no condensation.
I believe it may be a coincidence that the condensation occurred at the same location where the geo enters the house. The side of the house that is condensating gets no sun. The hole through the wall looks well sealed and there's been no water leaks. The walls have R-5 extruded polystyrene attached to them but the very top is a solid concrete "header" which is exposed to the very cold outside air. Here's a link to the Superior Walls. You can see how the walls are constructed and follow along with my line of thinking.
The person that came to look at it was the owner of the geo installing company. He's looking at some calculations to see what might be happening. He also does insulation installation and he thought that encapsulating the concrete header with spray foam might solve my problems. I want to have the walls insulated anyway so I'll look at that when the time comes.
I'm going to keep watching this but I imagine I won't see anything until it get's down to single digit temps. again. |
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| Kip Horn<br><br>Tranquility 27 (June 2008) |
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wirechief
New Member
Posts:72
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| 27 Jan 2009 10:55 PM |
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I had a similar incident however the condensation was only on one pipe, it disappeared the next day i checked. |
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| 1500 sq ft home with 5 ton Geocomfort heat pump<br>desuperheater,3200ft of horz loop. Howard city,MI. |
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