The picture was to big to attach here is a link to a video of the gorund exchange being installed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=way5AvYpnR4&feature=channel_page

Tom

Hi Tom The system quoted was for a closed loop, vertical well. I don't think an open well system is an option as our drinking water well, which is about 600 ft. deep produces about 2 gals./min. I have talked to some neighbors and this seems pretty typical for the area. We have about 6 acres of land, about 3/4 acre of lawn around the house and the rest wooded. There is a lot of ledge in the area, so the few people I managed to get out here all seemed to want to do vertical. I think it may just be easier for them to quote than horizontal. One was a well driller and the other two were plumbing companies. As far as the duct work, the house is a 2600 sq.ft. "L" shaped ranch. Basically two 65' x 26' wings, all one level. Thanks for your help. I will check out your web site. David

OK ... after a long hard week of removing all the old cast iron radiators, boiler, fuel tanks and pumping out 212 gallons of fuel oil which my cousin got as a freebie, the contractor brought our new Water Furnace 5 ton Envision unit this morning. It looks nice ... but then beauty is only skin deep. Its heavy ... I helped carry it down the stairs to the basement. Most of the supply and return vents were located and cut today. The contractor will resume next week. I meet with the driller Monday to confirm the drilling site and schedule. We needed a service panel upgrade to 200 amps to support the 20kW "emergency" heating element [ 100 amp breaker] and 60 amp breaker for the unit. That's another $1500 - $2000 and happens Wednesday.

I sure hope all my ducks are properly lined up !!

Kj,

Why 20 kW? that seems a bit high. We are in Eastern Iowa and, normally, install 10 kW.

Bergy

The 20 kW option is the only one certified as 'compatible' with the 5 ton unit we're getting.

Auxiliary Heat Ratings
Auxiliary Heat Electrical Data
KW BTU/HR Min Envision Series Compatibility

Model EAM(L)20 14.4 kw @ 208 VAC 19.2 kW @ 230 VAC 4 stages
49,200 BTU/hr @ 208 VAC 65,500 BTU/hr @ 230 VAC 1500 CFM minimum

Perhaps the kW output at the different voltages [ 208 vs 230 ] makes this sound more drastic of a difference than it is between you in Iowa and me in PA. I know my new 3 ton air-air unit in our Florida home has a 15 kW 'emergency' element.

I do admit I was a bit shocked when the contractor told me I needed a 100 amp breaker for the emergency back-up elelment. I told him I certainly hope this thing doesn't come on very often, cause it'll suck amps like water flowing over Niagara Falls at that rate of draw !

I'll ask him directly when he comes back Monday 'why so much ? ".

I have this same exact unit (minus the heat strips - don't need them in Texas).  It's a workhorse, that has been problem free now for two years and counting.  Good luck!

Regards,

Bill

That is simply not true. Any of the strip heaters offered by WFI are "compatible".
We do not size them to heat the entire home, only to provide enough emergency heat to prevent the home from freezing were something to happen to the compressor. If your system has been properly designed and sized, it should provide about 92%~98% of the heat required at design temperature with the strip heater making up the difference.

The 5 ton WF unit will have a total heating capacity(HC) of 43,200 Btu's. A 20 kW strip produces 68,288Btu's. Why would you want more strip capacity than geo capacity? Are you sure your system has been properly designed? Did your contractor low ball the geo size to keep the cost down and win the bid? Did they give you a copy of the heat loss/heat gain calculations for YOUR home? What size geo's were recomended by other bidders??

Sorry to put so many questions in your head this late in the game...but I think you really need to have them answered.

Bergy

I second all of that.

Any or no heat strips may be installed, subject to an upper limit of total installed KW, having to do with CFM capacity of the unit's blower to adequately blow the heat off the strips.

In fact some utility rebate programs capped the KW of installed strips to manage their peak loads. Not sure if this is still the case

Bergy ... I quoted the specifications manual for my unit, pg. 16 at the top under 'Auxiliary Haet Ratings'. The pdf file is at http://www.waterfurnace.com/literature/envision/SP1585.pdf ... its a 3.7 MB file. I do understand that downward compatibility in design is highly probable, but upward compatibility less probable ... but then I don't know the specific proprietary designs of WF's systems. I'll take your word that the strips are fully compatible. I'll be asking the contractor tomorrow for a better explanation. We are in a climate --- Allegeheny mountains --- where the winter temps will get down below zero for at least a few days to a week typically in the winter. The worst here has been 20-25 below, but that was a rare week back in 1993 ... reminded me of when I lived in Grand Forks, ND.

I did get an estimate from a DX contractor prior to even knowing that Water Furance existed. The DX contractor heat load and tonnage requirements were the same --- 5 ton. He also indicated a 20 kW heat strip [that's over 13 good hair dryers running at once]. The dollar cost quote was less than $1000 more for the DX system over the WF system, so money wasn't a factor in deciding between the two.


On pg. 9 of that same pdf document, the Performance Ratings for our 064 unit are listed as 72,500 BTUh capacity for heating under 'full' mode, vs. 51,500BTUh under 'part' mode... I assume this is stage 2 vs stage 1 data ... you're saying my system will only have 42,500 BTUh capacity ... 42500/12500 = 3.4 tons isn't it ?? ... again I'm no expert here and don't take what I'm saying as provoking an argument ... I'm just trying to understand the details, because 5 ton x 12500 BTU/ton = 62500 BTU. What am I missing ?

I will be reading the spec manual cover-to-cover tonight. :)

OK ... I get that point now ... missed it on first reading. The blower's capacity would then set the upward compaitibility limit for the size of heat strips.

KJ,

The heating capacity you are looking at is incorrect. Closed loop systems are rated at 30* Entering Water Temperature(EWT). Open loop systems are rated at 50* EWT.

You will have a "closed ground loop". On page 42 is the chart you need to look at. Left hand side...30* EWT, 16 GPM, 1800 CFM, 47,100 Btu heating capacity.

If you are installing an open loop system your numbers would be...
50* EWT, 8 GPM, 1800 CFM, 55,700 Btu heating capacity.


Bergy

Its been a very busy week for the installation of our new system. Bergy ... I looked at the page you referred me to just now. I will have to read the preceding material to understand the meaning of the terms and data ... I will do that this weekend now that I have some time. I didn't get it done previously like I said I would. The contractor's reasoning behind the 20kW backup heater was the 'present' high heat loss our home has due to minimal exterior wall insulation and lots of glass ... single pane glass backed by storm windows. Couple that with my elderly mom's demand that she not be cold in her bedroom, and both contractors [DX and WF] separately recommended the 20 kW unit. Its in place now and the 200 Amp service panel upgrade is complete, so I'll keep it now.

I will be injecting expanding foam into the exterior walls over the next couple weeks [I have TigerFoam ---- slow rise for the cavities, fast rise for the crawlspace surfaces]. We will also begin some window replacements this month, but as I do have lots of glass in the house, that will not be completed until next summer.

The crawl space duct work is now completely installed, along with the major supply and return lines in the open basement. The crawlspace ductwork is interior lined and exterior-wrapped for the large rectangualr supply and return ducts. The 6" supply ducts are not lined inside, but wrapped externally. The installers placed a vent with damper and cap just inside my crawlspace door for providing heat into the crawlspace during the winter to protect the plumbing. The dmaper and cap aree for closing it off during the summer cooling months. I will be applying a coat of expanding spray foam to all accessible areas of my crawlspace this next week and installing R-19 fiberglas batts in the joists.

The remaining ductwork should be completed next Tuesday, followed by wiring the uniot and plumbing the desuperheater to my main water heater. The well locations have been marked and I was told to expect to be informed of a drill date next Tuesday. Since out temps have been in the mid-40's overnight the past week, I'm looking forward to firing this new baby up !

That the Exact same model I have, but the crook I used changed me 15k! While it due he installed the unit, a Hot Water heater, electric wiring and some minor duct work, it was hardly 7k worth.  This goes to show you how much different prices are from contractor to contractor. I proably could have reccieve a slightly better price if I wasn't locked into the State's approved contractor. (recived special financing from the State of Zoo Jersey)
  

Glad I found this forum, and I'd like to post my system specs:

My wife and I just moved to a house in southeastern PA. It's a 1959 cape with a vaulted ceiling single room addition on the back. The previous owners had hot water baseboard heating with an oil furnace, and a central a/c system with the compressor outside.

We were able to factor in the cost of a Geoexchange/GSHP into the mortgage of the house. The system is finally installed and I wanted to post what we have for any feedback, questions, comments, etc.

House: 2200 sq feet - House was energy audited and found to be in good shape, no obvious leaks, windows are all newer, no missing insulation, etc.
Zoning: 2 zones, upstairs, downstairs. (Basement is unfinished and unheated)
Previously, the owners were paying about $300/mo for oil....I know, a lot! But true. I've seen their receipts.

Geothermal System:
GeoMax 2 with desuperheater - 4 ton unit
Wells - Closed loop, 2 wells, each is 300 feet. Each well contains a double loop of PEX-type tubing for the ground loops
Rehau is the mfgr of the tubing and the double loop system...some special "u bend". Rehau came out to supervise the install!
Oil furnace and baseboards removed, along with 275 gallon oil tank from basement.
40 gallon water heater installed, connected to the desuperheater, and also an AirTap.
AirTap - a mini-heat pump that sits on top of the water heater and pulls heat from the basement air to heat the water if the GSHP isn't on.

GeoMax 2 has a 2 stage compressor, plus the electric backup coil is also 2 stage (10 KW, and 15 KW).

Cost to install: $24,500 total

Presently, the thermostats are set to 68 when we're home, 57 at night, and 57 during the work day, 68 on weekends.
The electric backup coils are switched off at the breaker panel so they'll never come on.

Loop temperature reads 52 degrees.

Air temperature in the ducts is reaching 105 degrees. House warms up very quickly, and the system is very quiet...quieter than the original air handler for the a/c that was in the basement.

I did get 2 bids on the system, both wanted to put in vertical loops, but the estimate was $32,000 and that was for a WaterFurnace.

Much of the original duct work was reused, although my HVAC guy did run a couple extra ducts to the bathrooms, added an upstairs return duct, and also patched some serious gaps in the original ducting (holes big enough to stick your fingers into!).

So far, it's working great...but it's only been installed a week.

I have a WaterFurnace Envision 3 ton unit, vertical loop (4 wells) total approx 900 feet of loop. House is 1700 sq ft 2 story SIP home. 22 ft high vaulted ceiling in living room. no doubt this hurts efficiency because 5 ceiling fans run all the time. Energy Star everything, including reflective metal roof from Union Corrugating. HERS Index 49. Sears Powermiser 12 80 Gal water heater plumbed to DeSuperheater. All electric. East / Central Alabama. Cooling season avg 900 Kwh/Month - "BUT" the system needed serious "tuning". It ran constantly! Also there was a problem with one port on the zone controller that intermittently kept the damper closed even when supposed to be open. Went to another zone port and problem cleared. Thanks to this forum, I was able to reconfigure the IntelliZone, and put the thermostats in harmony with the IntelliZone, and got it working correctly. Unfortunately that was right at the end of summer... Winter Avg approx 760-800 Kwh /Month. Currently at $.129 / Kwh. Total cost to install unit, duct and loop was $14,500. This is my second WaterFurnace unit. Old house had a Premier II, 5 ton. Very similar results. Installed that in 1997 and sold that house in 2007. That was the first residential GeoThermal system installed withing many many miles of Columbus, GA. Ran ten years with no problems at all. Very impressed with the efficiency of these GSHP's. OH. Two adults in house most of the time. Temps in both zones kept at 72 in summer and 75 in winter. If I had to do it all over again, would have designed a path from the return air to the outside so I could hook up the active damper sitting in a box upstairs. Trying to work a solution for that one... There is no possible way to get fresh air into the return duct. That is unless someone can tell me how to install a return air worm hole. It would be nice to have controlled ventilation without the expense of a HRV.

Now that I think about it, there is a problem with the Envision. (I have a vertical unit). In the summer, there is sooo much humidity extracted at the evaporator coil. The very top of the coil rests up against the insulation at the top of the unit. What happens is: Water seeps from the top of the coil into the insulation. It accumulates and drips down onto and around the power box for the Aux resistive heater elements. Pieces parts (nuts, bolts etc) are corroding. It eventually starts running down the exterior of the unit. Yeah.. I take bake the earlier comment about no complaints. This is a problem. It is a design problem. I came up with a home brew fix. Install a piece of flashing above the evaporator coil to direct condensate down and away from the top insulation and into the drain pan. And try not to block air flow! I sent a message to WaterFurnace about this but no response. Will try them again.

Hope my experiences with two WaterFurnace units is helpful. I can say with certainty, the payback on the unit in the old house was less then three years. The same is expected for the current unit.

To:  Ed C

Hope this info will be helpfull  This is our second winter season with our geo in South Dakota, and it is wonderful on the monthly pocket book.  Anyway about the wind noise, our system was as others have stated extremely noisy   My installer and friend had little to offer except a possible noise kit from the geo company...high price tag ,no guarantee, which I did not purchase.  So I removed a four foot section of duct work on one of shortest/loudest runs, and replaced it with insulated flex duct.  PRESTO, totally acceptable noise level.  So I did the same on the other ducts, and WE are all happy with the results.  Hope this helps!

We put our new WaterFurnace 5-Ton Envision geothermal heat pump system in service 24 Sep 2009. Below are my ‘numbers’ for the 1st 3 months of this winter: Oct, Nov, and Dec 2009, compared with the same months in the years 2007 and 2008.
Average temperatures this Oct were significantly colder than Oct in 2007 and slightly colder on the average for Oct 2008. Nov was pretty nearly the same as Nov 2007, but warmer than Nov 2008. Dec has been slightly colder than the previous 2 years. In the past I have burned wood in my soapstone woodburner as a major assist to heating --- typically 5 cords over a winter. I have refrained from burning any wood this winter --- I wanted to see what the WaterFurnace is capable of. I did spend a couple months in Florida winter of 2007 and 2008, during which time the thermostat was set at 55 deg, with a backup electric heater in an addition. We suffered damage to this home both times from problems with our previous oil burner --- an insulation blanket came loose in early 2007 preventing the heater from coming on --- a radiator froze, burst, and flooded a large segment of our house causing $6000 in damages. Earlier this year, a flue backup blackened the entire interior with soot --- a major headache to clean. I do not miss my oil burner. I’ll be here this entire winter.

KWh Electricity Heating Oil Mo. Sum
Oct 2007 701 $58.90 $0.00 $58.90
Nov 2007 1454 $111.38 $628.00 $739.38
Dec 2007[in Florida] 665 $58.98 $493.50 $552.48

3 Month Sum 2007 2820 $229.26 $1121.50 $1350.76

KWh Electricity Heating Oil Mo. Sum
Oct 2008 924 $78.04 $595.50 $673.54
Nov 2008 1186 $97.30 $0.00 $97.30
Dec 2008 1224 $101.76 $448.50 $550.26

3 Month Sum 2008 3334 $277.10 $1121.50 $1321.10


KWh Electricity Heating Oil Mo. Sum
Oct 2009 1677 $149.09 $0.00 $149.09
Nov 2009[ 5 week bill] 2532 $226.15 $0.00 $226.15
Dec 2009[ 3-1/2 week bill] 2342 $208.85 $0.00 $208.85

3 Month Sum 2009 6464 $229.26 $0.00 $584.09

The 'comfort' of this system is astonishing compared to our previous systems. The temp control is very level --- no wide temperature swings. I wake up in the mornng and don't realize its 10 degrees outside until I look at my external thermometer.

Obviously my electrical usage has doubled … BUT I have no fuel oil bill anymore !! We’ve spent $737.01 LESS in Oct-Dec 2009 than we did in the same 3 months of 2008. We spent $766.67 LESS in Oct-Dec 2009 than we did in the same 3 months of 2007. That’s quite a savings ... and again, I was always burning wood in my soapstone woodburner before.! We’re heading into the coldest part of winter --- Jan and Feb. I do have significant heat loss through my large front windows. Replacing them with better U-value units is my spring project. I’ll post my total winter costs the 1st of May. We are very happy with this unit. I will start burning some wood now, as I do miss my evening fires in the fireplace.

KJ
SW PA

Well, my tabs and spacing obviously didn't make it through to the website version displayed here. I bought no heating oil in Oct 2007 nor in Nov 2008. Of course, I bought none the last 3 months either since we no longer have the oil burner. I hope y'all can make heads and tails of the data.

KJ,

Thanks for posting.   Great to hear these success stories