Hi All, I've just registered and am looking for some advice. My fiancee and I are looking at an old farmhouse from 1853 on the Maine coast. It has been a summer cottage for the last several years and before that it was a (seasonal?) inn where the Boston boat put in. as such it has no insulation, drafty windows and no heating system, with the exception of three electric baseboard systems that seem hardly enough to take the chill out of a foggy summer evening. With nothing installed (not even duct work) we have been looking around at heating options. One traditional HVAC guy gave us a bid for $21,000 for a high efficency propane system with three or four zones. This seemed high but we were all prepared to bite the bullet until I started looking further into a geo system which I think has convinced me. The only problem is the start up cost, though I think in the fact that we aren't saddled with a boiler already means that it might be a way to go. My questions are; 1) We aren't wealthy. The project is not going to be a million dollar gut and reno job with a show off heating system. Instead, I, as a boatbuilder, and am going to tinker away for the next several years on different projects. Eventually I want to replace the windows, insulate everything but this will take time. (Though the bank is making me install insulation now in order to qualify for a mortgage...) My question then is, should we go ahead with it or are we in a rich man's dream and we should just settle for what the sensible folk do, that is oil or propane? 2) One geo guy I talked to suggested a propane back up that we could rely on to back up the geo system for the first few years and eventually we would edge off of it as we became tighter and more R-heavy. Does this make sense? Could I, given financial shortages, install a propane system now that would easily switch over or be supplemented by a geo system next year? Do the amazing tax breaks just implented cover the back up propane addition or just the geo plant itself? We both think that geo is the way to go and are convinced about it. The only way is how. I'm not a big systems man, and don't want to worry about fussing with heat. I want a solid reliable system that does what it should and keeps me warm. If I can do good for the environment and save money, that's even better... Any advice or direction would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Nico

Best advice I can offer
Does the gas back up make sense , not usually but this may not be usually .
Most times its a pay now pay later situation . In other words the interest of a larger loan vs. the increased running cost .
My advice is invest as much as possible into insulation and sealing your home now ( considering you have to do some any way )
depending on how far you spread it out you can easily realize month to month savings by paying the bank back over paying for fuel
If this is done then you can reasonably cut out the LP furnace and go with an electric back up and widdle down that with small repairs .
I would say that if the quote was from 1 company with 1 receipt not itemized ( a turn key contract and bill ) not only would the government not know where the gas system ended and the geo began , neither would you . plausible deniability

Nico,
First and foremost I don't know if any of us can tell you that 100% of the purchase price will qualify for the 30% credit (waiting for the tax code).
Second, around my neck of the woods a central heating system is required for a mortgage. Not sure if you have one based on your description.
Third, you commented that sensible folks go for propane, and I would suggest the opposite is true.
If you are in the posistion of installing a complete duct system at the time of the geo depending on the job conditions, the price difference may be as little as 30% more. 30% of which may qualify for tax credit. Yet the propane may cost 3 or 4 times as much to operate (depending on electricity costs etc.). Propane doesn't sound sensible to me.
Honestly if you can't afford the extra installment amount for a geo system, then it is less likely that you can afford propane heat.
Good Luck,
Joe

I believe it is 30% of the total installed cost, no limit. A sweet deal to be sure. I found that on the dsire website.  I don't think a propane backup would qualify, unless you got the whole 'package' installed at once, that's a real grey area though.

If you use forced air you may be able to get a gas fireplace that can be ducted into the duct system to provide that extra punch when you need it. After the house is all sealed up you will still have a nice fireplace you can use.

How does the cost of using electric resistance heat compare to the cost of burning propane for heat in your area? I read that propane cost $2.90 last March, in Maine.

If the price of electricity is favorable, it is difficult to justify the installation cost of a high efficiency propane furnace vs using electric resistance heat.

How does the cost of installing a geothermal heat pump with emergency electric heat and without the ground loop (until funds become available) compare to the cost of a high efficiency propane furnace?

Regards, Masoud

Re tax credits;
Once again the law is written but the IRS tax code isn't. NOBODY knows how that's going to read.
What we do know is that the current language in the law would give you a full un-capped 30% for geo but cap the propane at $1,500. That will close the gap quite a bit for you. I believe there is a tax credit for insulation as well.
Re fireplace;
Not familiar with any that are higher in efficiency than a 95% so if you wish to go gas get a large 2 stage and be done with it. Over sized duct work will be good for geo down the road. If you have access to wood, get a wood burner (if sweat equity on the heating is a must). Some wood burners have tax credits as well.
Cost of insulation will likely be recovered in 1 year if you do it your self, so put it on a charge card if you have to.
I have always been a proponent of "reaching" to buy a home. But if you can't afford the things that will save you money, you might want to look at other homes.
J

Newbie, there's a compelling rationale for seriously considering geothermal - MONEY.  The tax credits (as some read them) give a 30% uncapped federal credit on a full geothermal installation.  
Although I don't know the size and configuration of the home - other than year built - but infer that since you're "not rich" this isn't a Rhode Island "cottage") here's how it might break out:

Insulation - $5,000 foaming to air seal attic and box beam - add batting for R-value to meet code

DX Geothermal:  4.0 ton system if home is less than 1800 sq ft (likely bubble construction w/rubble foundation walls)

HVAC - Any HVAC who is familiar with GEO installation.  Duct the home, install one high efficiency VS air handler, hot water storage tank - controls and T-stats. 

Total Cost will be about $45,000 depending on HVAC costs in Maine.  

Take 30% tax credit:  $13,500

Net cost:  $31,500

Cost of PREHISTORIC fossil fuel system - Oil, Propane whatever:  $21,000

Difference: $10,000

The fossil fuel system will cost you about $2500 a year to heat and deliver hot water.  Geo Air conditioning is more efficient than whatever they were putting in.
The geo system will cost about $1200 a year to run.  YOU SAVE about $1,300 a year. AT TODAYS FOSSIL FUEL PRICE.   The system will pay for itself in about 6-7 years assuming that fossil fuel increases less than 10% a year (not likely).  

What's there to think about??????  And lots of banks love green Home Equity loans.
 
Good luck - go geo if you can

Paul  

except if you have lots of time and no money, then you should burn wood.
j

Thanks for all the advice everyone. I had one guy in there who suggested that I do over the house, including jacking it three feet to raise the basement, and more. He said that if I put in 330 thousand dollars, he could set me up with a system that would only cost me 90 thousand...but he said if I didn't do all the work he reccomended, then he said I should put in a 27 ton system for 440 thousand. Is he mad? I told him his report was less than helpful and that it drove my fiancee outside to have a long cry! We have two more people going in this week to give us bids and they should—have to—come in much cheaper...

Sounds like he was politely trying to tell you he wasn't interested in the work, to bad.

How big is this house? The house I am in now is a old farmhouse, built around 1840. Has any work been done to the house? When trying to weatherise and heat a house like this there is a lot to consider. It can be difficult but not impossible.

The house is 2000 plus feet divided over twelve rooms. It was built, like yours, in 1853. Never been insulated, single pane windows with storm windows. I can't afford to replace the windows now so I'm stuck with that. I've got a guy looking to spray foam insulate the walls and the roof and need to figure out the heat situation. I had a "traditional" HVAC guy in who suggested, because of cost, going with five rennai heaters. It seems that besides looking god awful, it might hurt the resale value of the house to install them. Also, if I want to switch over to geo in five years, the nine K in heaters that I install now will just wind up in the dumpster. Conversely, if I can't do geo this year, at least installing a hi-ef lpg furnace will give me the duct work running through the house that I can hook up to a heat pump later.

But I'm still thinking that geo is the way to go. If I can break it down to the prices listed by Paul Auerbach above, then I'll be happy. My own self imposed limit with the bank is sixty thousand, and from that I'm hoping to get a five ton system, duct work, a good wood stove and blown in insulation...

Paul, or anyone, how does a GX system differ from any others...?

And if you can believe it, the guy wanted work. I just don't think he'd ever dealt with anyone on a real budget before... Hoping these other bids look better!

You need an actual heat load for your home. Most contractors can do this on their lap top now, but more importantly you can plug in different improvements to see which helps the most. From the scores of heat loads i do each year, I've noticed that a well caulked and glazed single pane window with a well fitting storm is often within 5% or less of a double pane window loss. In old farm houses wall insulation is the first and easiest significant improvement to load and the second is plugging up the multiple masonry fireplaces.
The point is if you purchase load software or pay to have a load calc done and some design support you would know what would help most, how big a system you need and you can even calculate how much it would cost to run propane v geo. You could get that information for a fee from thousands of contractors and you can get it for free from someone you hire for something else.
DX is direct exchange geo. It's been aroud about 30 years now and works fine. There are +/-'s in every kind of equipment I'm more interested in your contractor than the brand you buy. If your contractor is good, your experience will be good.
I don't know what part of "tax code yet to be written" folks don't get (I'm starting to sound shrill here), but since the tax code isn't written yet (so no one has read it) to determine how much of your purchase will qualify for the tax credit outlined in the stimulus package, don't bank on anything that is not guarunteed. It's bad advice.
Good Luck,
Joe

I have an old farmhouse and an estimate for $40,000. I think like you do that geo is the right way to go, just budget it into your financing. I've talked to lots of HVAC people and folks who have put geo systems in. It has become clear that the most important part is the experience of the installer - and his reputation for doing a good job. The best thing for you to do right now is to keep looking for experienced geo people, ask lots of questions and see if their answers make sense based on what you know. When you find two or three you think you can trust, get estimates based on the heat load calculation for your house. Be very sure to check references to see if their customers are happy with their systems and installation.

There are a lot of inept and even shady installers out there, so be careful. Just today someone told me when he called several of the references one guy gave him, he got the feeling the people didn't even have geo systems in their houses because they couldn't answer the most basic questions and seemed to know nothing about geo. He also said one of the HVAC guys he had gotten a quote from is in jail now for cheating customers. So, be careful and do your homework. He did his for about a year and is very happy with the system he put in five years ago.

Two HVAC firms I have spoken with claim to have put in the same customers system. I knew that customer, so knew the straight story. One guy worked for the other, he didn't put it in as he claimed, so I wrote him off. And, the system replaced one that never worked right to begin with. It had been put in by a fast talking, self proclaimed geo expert, who is now out of business. Caveat emptor - "let the buyer beware", seems to apply to looking into geothermal heat pump systems, but the results will be worth the trouble.

Joe is right on the ball. you need to have a manual J done on the home and then always the next step is to do an audit of the comparisons. The customer deserves this, after all its alot of money they are investing not to mention the contractors reputation. I know you will find it is more expensive to operate a propane furnace as back up over resistence. with the goe system sized at 95% or better your cost for back up will more than likely be less than $50. Do the J so you do not have to pay