Hi,

My wife and I are considering replacing our gas furnace / gas HWH / traditional A/C unit with geo.  We're getting estimates right now for geo and for traditional.  Currently, our furnace is 78% AFUE (11 years old) and 3 ton A/C unit is an 11 SEER (22 years old).  The heat works great, but the A/C does not adequately cool the house, mostly due to poor ducting (not enough of it), which we would fix at the same time as installing a new system.  Geo has a specific appeal as we could use the chase currently holding the flue for the HWH and furnace for a large duct to carry supply air across to the other side of our house plus use it for a laundry chute.  The house is a 1951 rambler (1 story plus finished basement, unconditioned attic - about 2200 sq ft total).

Our considerations are to get high efficiency units (at least 17 SEER and 94% AFUE so can direct vent) versus geo.  I'm really struggling trying to compare new systems though - how much less power (obviously uses no gas) will geo use versus a brand new high efficiency system?  We don't seem to use much gas to heat hot water - even though the HWH isn't a "high efficiency" system - we used around 5 therms / month when not in heating season, and that includes gas for cooking.

It's nearly impossible to calculate a return on investment.  Obviously, geo systems are much, much more efficient but I can't figure out if the huge premium is worth it, especially considering that we probably will only live in the house another 5-7 years (although I do understand geo systems get a premium for the lower utilities at time of sale).  Any pointers how to compare systems?

Thanks,

Steven

Steven,
The Installers that you receive bids from should have operating cost projections.
Impossible for us to predict your operating cost with so little data (need heat load, geographic location, cost of fuels etc.)
Also, if you are replacing equipment anyway, you are starting with a 7 or 8K allowance for the system you describe and a 30% tax credit.
My customers have paybacks in 3 to 10 years by and large. Those that use propane or fuel oil routinely in less than 5.
Good Luck,
Joe

It's really debatable weather or not a geo system will add value to your house. I believe most people do not give the heating system serious consideration when buying a house, it's more the granite countertops and the the remodeled bathrooms that really sell a house.  The heating system really isn't sexy, most people havent a clue what Geothermal really means and the kinds of impact it has on the utility bills. 
   

Debatable yes
but as a wise man once said " something is only worth what somebody is willing to pay for it "
In my mind If there is a viable market for installing geo , then there would be a viable resale .
Also just about every marketing firm , inventor , and contractor , Is working day and night to get there foot in the green door .
I can tell you from a service guys perspective we sell more effeceincy upgrades then air quility/treatment by far .
I have even seen realators advirtise as specializing in green homes .
Not saying your wrong , the Wives make the disicion and most dont care to much about the mechanical room .
I am saying there is a market for it , and the right person would pay more .


But for hard numbers , min info would be equip prices , utility rates electric and gas , previous equipment effeciency and utility cost for last few years averaged

i'm with TG, geo ain't sexy.
5-7 years might pay you back first though, and if you stay longer, definately. Then all you have to do is beat your neighbors by laying your bills on the counter.
j

Steven,

The software we use generates cost comparisons between the Geo and whatever system you have, or want. Any Geo contractor that has been factory trained should have, and know how to use the software. If they don't have it, I would question their credentials. However, that does not mean a contractor is good just because they have the software.

The reports should be kept in a folder along with ALL the manuals AND copies of the electric bills as proof of the heating and cooling costs. When the house is listed the ad should feature BIG BOLD letters... Featuring Geothermal Heating and Cooling!! Educate the realtor about the benefits of Geo, prove the cost savings and the home will command a higher price.

Bergy

It would be good general practice to verify anything said by someone trying to sell you any kind of system.

Every situation is different, but for heating, actual geothermal systems often are 33% of the operating cost of electric and 80% of the cost of natural gas.

If you spend $2000/year on nat gas heat, saving 20% is $400/year. I might pay $5000 extra for a system that would provide that.

Cooling adds to the savings.

I agree, some people would pay more, but for the most part, people are not going to pay. As you said more often than not, it's the wife that says, "I want this house." I don't think any studies have been done, but I'm willing to wager the wife that Wants it mentality help drive some of the housing bubble. Your never going to get any Ohh's and Ahh's out of women when you show them the mechanical room.    I think laying the utility Bills out is a great idea, I just don't know how many people are going to look at them when you are not around to point them out (or the realtor).  Most buyers have there own realtor, so educating the hell out of your realtor isn't going to nessessarily carry over to other realtors showing your house.

   

Thanks for the replies. I've received one bid, one more on the way, and getting a 3rd next week. I'll go through our past 2 years of utility bills and figure out our total use.

If we do this, I'm going to consider getting an energy audit (I've been sealing up gaps like a madman) and investigating the new LEED certification for existing house retrofits - since LEED is the most well recognized authoritative "green" certification out there.

Most likely, we are changing too many variables (adding returns / supply vents and increasing insulation in the attic) to adequately compare the existing to a new system, regardless of the type of system. Waterfurnace has a calculator on their website, but they don't tell you what their baseline is for savings, so I view it with a grain of salt.

Our county now requires sellers to provide buyers with the previous year's utility bills (or maybe just dollar amounts), so saving electricity / nat gas should help sell when it comes that time, probably another 5 years from now.

The laundry chute that we would put in if we get rid of our flue would provide the oohs and ahhs for the wives. :)

Value added is not the most compelling argument anyway. The fact that it saves you more than it costs you is.

I just installed my system this January. I have the desuperheater option but it required a 2nd water tank for the standby. I lost a bit of floor space in my utility room so that may be a detriment to a female buyer who wants more space for the laundry. Aside from the energy savings, our comfort level is far greater with the geo system but I was especially glad to get rid of a substantial indoor carbon monoxide risk.