Worry about the duct work
Last Post 02 Jun 2009 05:47 PM by geo fan. 4 Replies.
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joe.amiUser is Offline
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01 Jun 2009 11:43 PM

For some reason I find that I'm answering the same questions again and again.
1) How do I know the loops will be big enough?
2) How do I know the EWT will stay above freezing?
3) How do I know the auxiliary heater won't come on?
Here are the answers:
1) Because you did your homework and you know that your installer is either certified by the International Ground Source Heat Pump Association and has a string of satisfied customers behind him/her or it is a DX system where all loops are the same size.
We don't guess loop size we do what we know works with decades of our own or our trainer/instructor's experience to guide us.
2) If you are in a heating dominated climate it is anticipated that the water will get below freezing, that's why the antifreeze is there. There has been a trend lately to insist on extra loops (on this and other sites) because we have somehow led folks to believe that it is worth the expense. By and large it is not.
3) Again in a heating dominated climate the auxiliary coil is an inexpensive alternative to geo that is designed to accomodate 100% of your heating load.
A typical home in MI for example may find that a system designed to satisfy the thermostat 95 out of 100 heating days might be 2 tons (or more) smaller than a unit designed to handle all of the heating needs. The difference is thousands of dollars off the installation cost and often less than $100 added to the operating cost.
So, what does all this have to do with the title of this thread?
Ductwork is one of the single most common problems I see in geothermal installations.
Undersized duct work reduces the capacity of a heat pump (both air and ground source). It causes problems with distribution and it's really noisey.
The carpet baggers that will be offering geo soon, will hire an experienced geo excavator for the loops, but they will do the same lousy sheet metal work they did during the construction boom to satisfy code and bid minimums.
So IMHO if you really want to grill your bidding contractors, get off the loop questions. Instead ask them "how many square inches of return air is required by the International Mechanical Code for a heat pump?"
If they say 6 sq"/thousand BTU's, you've got a pro (unfortunately this same question might stump your local inspector so you'll have to enforce it).
A loop operating at 25* instead of 32 might cost $50 to $75/year but choked duct work could cost you hundreds + uneven temps and noise.
Luck to all,
Joe

Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
MasoudUser is Offline
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02 Jun 2009 09:23 AM
Good morning Joe:

Could you please explain the 6 square inch return air requirement for a heat pump? Is it 6 sq" per ...?

My geo (3 ton retrofit in Michigan, horizontal, $19K) provided 100% of last winter's heating requirement. Aux heat was not turned off, but not needed. In theory and roughly, what would have been the cost savings, if it were designed to satisfy 95 out of 100 heating days? Thank you.

Regards, Masoud
joe.amiUser is Offline
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02 Jun 2009 10:19 AM
Masoud,
Thanx, I edited the original ( 6sq"/1000 btu's).
Regarding your system I would have to know the heat load, but knowing Craig (loop installer), you likely stayed close to 34* EWT which would still offer 30KBTU's out of your heat pump on the coldest days. I suspect that your heat load is fairly modest and may not be what I would characterize as typical around here.
With extremely small loads, say 40KBTU on down, it gets counterintuitve (even for me) to drop much below a 3 ton, though 15's, 18's, and 24's are available. If I'm not mistaken you also installed this last fall and likely would have had to special order any thing smaller than a 3. We can run the calcs though if you like.
J
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
MasoudUser is Offline
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02 Jun 2009 05:17 PM
Joe:

Thank you for your answers. Manual J for my house indicated a 49.5 KBTUH load- when heated to 72˚, design temp 1˚, Toledo. There is no need to run calcs for my system. I need to ask another question related to return air duct size.

My return duct is sized at 27" x 8" near the end before it expands and attaches to the heat pump. This constitutes a bottleneck, but still good for a 3 ton heat pump. Would my return duct be grossly undersized in case I use 34 KBTUH of aux heat along with the heat pump running in 2nd stage? Thank you.

Regards, Masoud


geo fanUser is Offline
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02 Jun 2009 05:47 PM
Return air is not quite that simple
and ( as Im sure Joe knows ) demanding code minimum might not be the best fit
Just as important as the opening size is the type of grill
bar faced , stamped plate , or waffle , filter grill . all restrict the air flow but different %.
also the size and length and type of duct plays a huge role
If your retun box(s) are the right size duct the ducts connected to them are not , your in just as bad shape .
if your using flex your pressure drop per 100feet goes way up .
If you have a central return you should pop the doors off the hinges and take at least an inch off the bottom of the door( or your choking the system )
some safe diameters for ya

ton ..........................................................................cfm ..............Round metel return diameter
2.0............................................................................800..............................16"
2.5..........................................................................1000..............................18"
3.0..........................................................................1200..............................20"
4.0..........................................................................1600..........................2-16"
5.0..........................................................................2000..........................2-18"
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