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Service Contracts

Last Post 28 Jan 2010 11:49 AM by TechGromit. 15 Replies.

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samhariharan User is Offline

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Posts:28

26 Jan 2010 10:54 AM
I know there has been some discussion of this but I had a related question on value. I am in MA and have a geothermal system (a 3-ton ClimateMaster Tranquility 27 indoor split system). For the last two seasons, this has worked perfectly fine with no problems. I know this is still under warranty but I recognized that the primary expense in service is labor not parts which you incur even under warranty. I have a quote for a service contract for my system for $291 a year. This includes 2 pre-season "free" calls (truck charges of $35 per call to be paid) each year to check the system and do routine maintenance (change filters, check system operation I guess). In addition, you get a rebate of 50% on any additional service calls. Is it a good idea to get these service contracts? Is this price in the ballpark? Is it a good value? What questions should I be asking of the contractor? Any other advice? Thanks in advance for your responses.

geome

Advanced Member

Posts:987

26 Jan 2010 12:16 PM
Is there any labor warranty currently in effect (if so, how long) from either the manufacturer (maybe a labor allowance) or the installer? Find out for sure if filters are included. If so, what type? For comparison, we have been offered $220/yr to check our 2 systems 2x/year, but we aren't in MA (we are in VA). I don't believe our offer included any service discount, but this may be due to the fact that we have a 10 year parts and labor warranty in effect. Find out what the 50% off includes. Just the truck charge, or all labor performed no matter how involved? Can you keep renewing the agreement, even when the equipment is 17 years old, for example. If it is only offered for let's say the first 10 years, and that's it, it may not be worth it. I would get a copy of the agreement and read it thoroughly to help you decide. Is there a limit on annual service contract price increases? Can you agree to the service contract at a later date? Sounds a little high to me, but for your area it may be reasonable, especially considering the deal on additional service calls (if it is a good deal).

Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon.

TechGromit User is Offline

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Posts:634

26 Jan 2010 01:22 PM
Posted By samhariharan on 01/26/2010 10:54 AM I know there has been some discussion of this but I had a related question on value. I am in MA and have a geothermal system (a 3-ton ClimateMaster Tranquility 27 indoor split system). For the last two seasons, this has worked perfectly fine with no problems. I know this is still under warranty but I recognized that the primary expense in service is labor not parts which you incur even under warranty. I have a quote for a service contract for my system for $291 a year. This includes 2 pre-season "free" calls (truck charges of $35 per call to be paid) each year to check the system and do routine maintenance (change filters, check system operation I guess). In addition, you get a rebate of 50% on any additional service calls. Is it a good idea to get these service contracts? Is this price in the ballpark? Is it a good value? What questions should I be asking of the contractor? Any other advice? Thanks in advance for your responses. I deem it a waste of money. I too got a offer for a service contract for around $200, with a thinly veiled threat that if the system is not properly serviced, it will void my Waterfurnace warranty. I can change my own filters thank you. They were offereing to check out the system once a year and to give me "Priority" service in case there was a problem with the system. If this was a service contract where if anything went wrong with the system they fix it for free it would be well worth it, but that's not what they are offering. I might even have considered it if they said they back flush the system once a year, but they were not even offering that. It's that same basic BS that every store offers extended warranties on everything they sell for an extra fee. I even got one on a gun safe I purchased for $99 at Dicks last week, for $5 I could have purchased a year of extended coverage, it's a frigging box with a lock, what the hell could go wrong with it?! The extended warranties BS is pure profit for stores, I think they pay out less then 5% in claims if I remember correctly. I think the odds of anything going wrong with a new system within the first 5 years of service are very low. I think your better off saving that $200 a year and pay for a inspection service call every 2 or 3 years when the system is new and have it inspected every year as the system gets older. Don't confuse this offer with an extended warranty, they are not offering to extend the parts and labor warranty for your system. It just a service call warranty, that is they will not charge you to come out and look at the system. If your compressor goes, they still charage you labor to put the new part in, provided of course the part is still under the original warranty, if not, your paying for the compressor too.

jerkylips

Basic Member

Posts:359

26 Jan 2010 01:31 PM
Posted By TechGromit on 01/26/2010 1:22 PM Posted By samhariharan on 01/26/2010 10:54 AM I know there has been some discussion of this but I had a related question on value. I am in MA and have a geothermal system (a 3-ton ClimateMaster Tranquility 27 indoor split system). For the last two seasons, this has worked perfectly fine with no problems. I know this is still under warranty but I recognized that the primary expense in service is labor not parts which you incur even under warranty. I have a quote for a service contract for my system for $291 a year. This includes 2 pre-season "free" calls (truck charges of $35 per call to be paid) each year to check the system and do routine maintenance (change filters, check system operation I guess). In addition, you get a rebate of 50% on any additional service calls. Is it a good idea to get these service contracts? Is this price in the ballpark? Is it a good value? What questions should I be asking of the contractor? Any other advice? Thanks in advance for your responses. I deem it a waste of money. I too got a offer for a service contract for around $200, with a thinly veiled threat that if the system is not properly serviced, it will void my Waterfurnace warranty. I can change my own filters thank you. They were offereing to check out the system once a year and to give me "Priority" service in case there was a problem with the system. If this was a service contract where if anything went wrong with the system they fix it for free it would be well worth it, but that's not what they are offering. I might even have considered it if they said they back flush the system once a year, but they were not even offering that. It's that same basic BS that every store offers extended warranties on everything they sell for an extra fee. I even got one on a gun safe I purchased for $99 at Dicks last week, for $5 I could have purchased a year of extended coverage, it's a frigging box with a lock, what the hell could go wrong with it?! The extended warranties BS is pure profit for stores, I think they pay out less then 5% in claims if I remember correctly. I think the odds of anything going wrong with a new system within the first 5 years of service are very low. I think your better off saving that $200 a year and pay for a inspection service call every 2 or 3 years when the system is new and have it inspected every year as the system gets older. Don't confuse this offer with an extended warranty, they are not offering to extend the parts and labor warranty for your system. It just a service call warranty, that is they will not charge you to come out and look at the system. If your compressor goes, they still charage you lobar to put the new part in, provided of course the part is still under the original warranty, if not, your paying for the compressor too. I would tend to agree. I may be wrong, but shouldn't labor be covered under warranty, at least for the first year? I don't know the odds, but I'd say that the chance of something going wrong in the first 2-3 years is fairly low. At basically $300/year, if something went wrong after 3 years, you've already spent $900 on the service contract. For peace of mind, put that $300/year into a savings account so you have a buffer if something does go wrong..

samhariharan User is Offline

New Member

Posts:28

26 Jan 2010 01:43 PM
I recognize these are not extended warranties. In fact, even for components under warranty (such as the ClimateMaster warranty on compressor etc. for 10 years), the labor is not covered. The only attractive feature of this contract is that it works a little like insurance. A service call can be about $120 minimum (diagnostic of $99 + Truck charges of $35). Since they offer some routine maintenance (such as clean and adjust the blower, drain pan and pipe etc.) twice and offer 50% rebates on services beyond that, I was wondering if this was similar to what most contractors offer. I can and have replaced filters but not sure I want to do the more advanced stuff. Thanks! Sam

engineer

Veteran Member

Posts:2749

26 Jan 2010 08:04 PM
I'm a new HVAC contractor but have a couple decades experience in the care and feeding of factory automation systems whose annual service contracts run anywhere from $5k to $100k per year - just to put this in perspective. One system I work on costs its owner $200k PER HOUR if it goes down unplanned, so my fees seem quite reasonable in comparison Whether that $361 annual service contract charge (contract plus truck charges) is worthwhile depends on many variables. For that price I'd look to provide a comprehensive examination of the system to include airside and waterside pressures, flows and delta-Ts. That info I'd combine with measuring power consumption of the unit and return an energy balance. Those measurements and calculations are elementary to perform but are Greek to 9 out of 10 HVAC contractors. Anyone who springs for a geo system wants the assurance that it continues to provide the promised comfort at near the promised efficiency, year after year. $361 sounds high, but might only be 1-2% of the installed cost of the system, a relative bargain if viewed as insurance for the continued durability and efficiency of the system. If the air filters are poorly selected, badly fitted or infrequently changed, dirt will find its way onto both the unit's airside coil and blower. It doesn't take much dirt in either component to substantially degrade system performance and consequently increase operating costs. A good maintenance program will detect, remove, and prevent such degradation. Competent DIYers aware of these issues (such as TG) should probably forego this expense. Folks who prefer their sole interaction with the system to be an occasional filter change and paying a much lower electric bill would be well advised to pay for a maintenance contract, as long as it meets the minimum specifications I describe above.

Curt Kinder <br><br> The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>

geome

Advanced Member

Posts:987

27 Jan 2010 11:14 AM
engineer, bill, and anyone else: What do you think of using a WEL system as an alternative to yearly service agreements. Can the system monitor everything that would be checked for in a thorough system check? 2-3 years of doing without these agreements would pay for the unit (not including installation). Thanks!

Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon.

engineer

Veteran Member

Posts:2749

27 Jan 2010 01:13 PM
Yes, in theory. However, Wel isn't necessary for this. In fact, if you are or become well-informed enough to specify and install a Wel system, you can probably figure out the basics of your own maintenance program. For $361 you can get your very own LCD manometer, clamp ammeter, and a pressure guage and a thermometer, and then you can do all the stuff I wrote about above.

Curt Kinder <br><br> The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>

geome

Advanced Member

Posts:987

27 Jan 2010 04:20 PM
Ok engineer, I give. Where can I spend $361 and get this (good) equipment? You can PM me if you want. Thanks!

Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon.

engineer

Veteran Member

Posts:2749

27 Jan 2010 05:01 PM
A testo mano runs about $200. A clamp meter can be had under $100. $10 or so each for pressure guage - fit it with a needle ball inflator for easy access into Pete's ports. LCD meat thermometers suffice for temperatures. Find the thinnest probe you can for the Pete's ports. Know that using the clamp meter requires entering a cabinet with lethal voltages lurking therein. For about $60 you can buy a Magnehelic analog guage in lieu of the Testo, but the Testo is much more versatile. If your ESP is within blower limits airflow will be within 5% of setpoints, assuming you have ECM blowers - I hope you sprang for those. Collectively that's enough gear to measure and calculate unit performance and efficiency If you are into figuring out hours and cost of operation check out Readington LCD hourmeters

Curt Kinder <br><br> The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>

geome

Advanced Member

Posts:987

27 Jan 2010 05:48 PM
Thanks engineer. What's an ECM blower? Just kidding, we have them. Without specific model numbers (I don't expect you to look them up) I will probably wait for our spring check (2 checks are included with our installation). I will follow the tech around to see specifically what he uses and does. If he doesn't electrocute himself, I may buy the equipment. Are needle ball inflators sturdy enough? In my youth, I remember those things bending and breaking all the time.

Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon.

engineer

Veteran Member

Posts:2749

27 Jan 2010 11:25 PM
If he does electrocute himself, box up the equipment he used and squirrel it away somewhere. Chances are his boss would be way too preoccupied with the paperwork associated with a zapped tech to worry about the tools until way after the fact. Ball inflators are OK if you don't apply too much bending force at where the needle meets the base.

Curt Kinder <br><br> The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>

geome

Advanced Member

Posts:987

28 Jan 2010 07:17 AM
:-) Yep, that's where I remember the needles bending. Is a pressure ram (for the loop), with a pressure gauge and needle expensive? Just exploring different options...

Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon.

engineer

Veteran Member

Posts:2749

28 Jan 2010 10:17 AM
Dunno - our loop and well guy pressurizes with muni water

Curt Kinder <br><br> The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>

geome

Advanced Member

Posts:987

28 Jan 2010 10:26 AM
After the initial installation, does he top it off (check and add water to bring the pressure up if needed) after the first 6 months or year? I mean the type that goes into the PT port, has a pressure gauge, and a hose bib on the end. I just called one place that sells them - less than $60 not including shipping.

Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon.

TechGromit User is Offline

Advanced Member

Posts:634

28 Jan 2010 11:49 AM
Posted By engineer on 01/26/2010 8:04 PM I'm a new HVAC contractor but have a couple decades experience in the care and feeding of factory automation systems whose annual service contracts run anywhere from $5k to $100k per year - just to put this in perspective. One system I work on costs its owner $200k PER HOUR if it goes down unplanned, so my fees seem quite reasonable in comparison To put these numbers in perspective, annual service contracts for business are for complete service agreements, the boss in a business suit isn't sticking his head in a HVAC system to check the filters every month. A HVAC tech comes out every few months, if not every month to check the filters and every system located on the property. You have to remember big building often have several, if not dozens of units located on the property. So a 100k service agreement includes dozens of systems, complete service maintenance. For a home owner, even if the agreement includes bi-annual checkups, this isn't often enough to check and change the system filters. 1 inch filters should be replaced EVERY month and 4 inch filters every 3 months, as a homeowner you should learn how to replace filters. Order them in bulk online to save money. Even if the filter doesn't look dirty to you, you should replace it. Looking at my 4 inch filters after 3 months, it still looks white, if you compare the used filter to a new one, you can see that it's an off white color. Once the filter becomes clogged enough, the system will begin to pull dirt through the filter as it puts pressure on the filter trying to suck air through it. And an off white filter is what you should expect, if it's coated with grey dirt and lint a 1/8 of inch thick, the system has been running overworked for quite some time. Dirty air filters are the #1 cause of system failures, once the filter becomes clogged, it has to work harder to provide the same service, and the more clogged it gets the harder it's working to keep you comfortable, costing you more money in operating expenses and a shorter system life span.