CM Tranquitiy 27 trouble - Air coil leak in unit <4 yr old
Last Post 14 Apr 2010 12:55 AM by geodean. 6 Replies.
Printer Friendly
Sort:
PrevPrev NextNext
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Author Messages
eltech70User is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2

--
09 Apr 2010 10:53 PM
I have a Climate Master Tranquility 27 (TT 064) in my N/E Maryland home, installed Sept. 2006 as an upgrade for a long running 1986 CM 805 GSHP system.  The original 'linear' horz loop antifreeze system (loop pumps, manifolds, valving, etc. is still going strong (knock on wood). 

I experienced no problems with this new unit for the first 3 years.  In Dec 2009, I discovered the compressor had shut down with an FP1 fault (water coil low temp).  I realized this had occurred when we quickly raised the SP by several degrees, triggering stage 2 heat. (FWIW this system had seldom (if ever) run in stage 2, even on the coldest of days)  At the time, the cause of this LO condition baffled me since EWT/LWT measured well above the 30deg F FP1 limit setting (49F/45F measured).   At that time, to prevent a recurrence of the LO condition, I reconfigured the FP1 limit setting to the optional 10deg F setting.   There were no LO's over the balance of this past winter heating season.  

I switched the system to cooling mode the other day.  The compressor started but tripped off after about 1 minute (in lock-out), with an 'FP2' fault (air coil low temp).  While checking  basics like: air filter condition, air flow, loop flow issues, etc.,  I discovered an oily residue along the bottom fins of the air coil, and also inside the condensate pan.... getting worried now!   I glanced over the surface of the air coil from the interior (blower) side, and observed one spot in the fin area, about an inch in diameter, which appears to be a different color/shade against the sheen of the clean black E-Coated coil/fin surface.   OK.... by now I'm really worried!!!    I tried the system several more times in cooling mode, with same result.... FP2 LO each time.  To test, I reset the thermo to heat mode.... system started and continued to run for at least 10 minutes.... then I shut it down.

Local CM approved dealer checked out my system this morning.  Tech's 'sniiffer' confirmed an air coil refrigerant leak in the area of that irregular air coil spot, with a low 410A charge.   So, in hindsight, I believe the system has been losing 410A for awhile now, and the LO faults I've experienced may have been related to low charge.   Looking back over my rather spotty EWT/LWT log records, I see that my coax delta T's seem to have been dropping over the past year, so efficiency has been dropping too.

I'm not a happy camper right now.  THIS SYSTEM IS JUST 3 1/2 YEARS OLD!!!   Service tech advised they'd look into my warranty status and check availability of replacement air coil.  Obviously replacement of an aircoil is NOT a simple task.  Quick estimate was a full day's work.  I see lots of labor $'s ahead!   Today, I called CM myself to determine my warranty status.  Was told parts are covered but not labor, although I did not yet receive a call-back from the 'warranty specialist'.

On this forum, I found one reference (posts by 'Gary De', Jan and Aug 2009) to an identical CM unit, which it seems, had similar air coil issues.   Does anyone know of general CM quality issues in the 2006 time frame?  I chose CM for my GSHP upgrade, with the belief that their products were among the best on the market.   Am I just unlucky?   Most I've talked with, seem to praise the Tranquility 27 product.

Any comments, suggestions, or info on warranty experiences would be greatly appreciated.

Sorry for this long post.....I'm 'shell shocked' right now!
joe.amiUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:4377
Avatar

--
11 Apr 2010 01:01 PM
You might just be unlucky. Climatemaster (depending on who you believe) sells more heat pumps than anyone, yet I think it's fair to say it's not the most common brand for complaints here.
Make sure installation is not responsible for coil damage.
A day of labor is close, I tell folks 3-4 hours for installer and helper (=1 man day).
Good Luck.
Joe
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
eltech70User is Offline
New Member
New Member
Send Private Message
Posts:2

--
13 Apr 2010 02:07 PM
Thanks for your comments Joe. Yeah, I suppose this air coil leak may just be a fluke considering CM's overall quality record(?), but my significant anticipated (and unexpected) labor expense, due to premature failure of a major component in a <4 year old unit, really threatens MY home operating budget big time.... throws the system ROI out the window too. I have contacted CM to see what they may be willing to do, considering the short service life of this unit.

As for your installation question.... The air coil leak is on the interior side, and well clear of any exposed coil surfaces that would likely have been affected during transport and site installation. I would think that the leaky area on the coil was due to either: a defect in the tube/fin materials during coil fabrication; or due to some factory handling issue prior to, or after, the coil being installed into the cabinet. Since this 'spot' is located just a few inches away of a manifold that gathers the small tubes from the coil, brazing of the manifold's 3/4" main connection might be a suspect cause as well..... perhaps an errant torch flame?

I understand a replacement coil may take 3 weeks to obtain from CM. Humm, I hope the weather remains mild!
Just wondering out loud..... perhaps they don't maintain any coils in 'service' inventory, OR... did they have a recent run on them???
jonrUser is Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
Send Private Message
Posts:5341

--
13 Apr 2010 08:41 PM
It's a good reminder about the great disparity/contradiction between longevity claims and warranties. Typical warranty is what - 5 years, parts only?

joe.amiUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:4377
Avatar

--
13 Apr 2010 10:39 PM
"It's a good reminder about the great disparity/contradiction between longevity claims and warranties. Typical warranty is what - 5 years, parts only? "
Not sure what the "contradiction is." It never occured to me my '06 Chevy would only last as long as the warranty (3/36; essentially a one year warranty for me), I simply suspected that it was an industry standard and that it was a reasonable period to determine part failure was not necessarily a manufacturer's defect. '07 Ford had longer warranty as did '07 Chevies since market forces often drive warranties in consumer favor.
Appliance warranties are driven by market forces and sometimes energy star. Labor warranties are out of pocket expense for contractors sometimes directed by state law.
Not aware of any heat pump right now (save maybe remaining low end R-22 models) with only a 5 year part warranty.

Eltech,
I think your frustration is legitimate. I would definately try to get consideration from CM and installing contractor.
I don't happen to sell CM anymore but it has to do with distribution not product. I have had a few nuisance warranties out of dozens of installs in the last few years, but no air coils. Off the top of my head I would say 1 ECM board, 1 solenoid for an open loop unit, a high pressure switch and one with a poorly brazed joint right out of the box.
In the same time period I have had two failed TXV's on our economy line. This is a much more serious repair.

"MY home operating budget big time.... throws the system ROI out the window too." I get the budget thing. Like any major repair, no one wants to have to deal with them especially just a few years to replace an old system to avoid further problems.......I don't get the ROI point, did someone actually suggest to you your return on investment would be anything more than a couple bucks a year? When replacing a system with a newer one; furnace, heat pump, whatever- we seldom speak of ROI.
j


Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort!
jonrUser is Offline
Senior Member
Senior Member
Send Private Message
Posts:5341

--
13 Apr 2010 11:42 PM
Not that I believe any of it, but straight from their web site:
What is the life of a system?
Experts believe 18-23 years of serviceable life is expected from ground source heat pumps. This is nearly double that of conventional systems.

What is ECONAR's warranty?
Only the best in the industry.

Residential Installations:

2 years parts
5 years refrigeration components
Palace GeothermalUser is Offline
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Send Private Message
Posts:1609

--
14 Apr 2010 12:55 AM
some companies are now offering life time compressor warranties
Dewayne Dean

<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system
You are not authorized to post a reply.

Active Forums 4.1
Membership Membership: Latest New User Latest: croccohvacusa New Today New Today: 0 New Yesterday New Yesterday: 0 User Count Overall: 35027
People Online People Online: Visitors Visitors: 96 Members Members: 0 Total Total: 96
Copyright 2011 by BuildCentral, Inc.   Terms Of Use  Privacy Statement