geome
Advanced Member
Posts:987
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| 09 Jun 2010 07:17 PM |
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Posted By adkjacUpstateNY on 09 Jun 2010 06:21 PM
In another nutshell... politely as I can state it. First, I am not
researching heat systems for my home. I am looking into GEO for general
and specific knowledge. And when it comes down to brass tacks, install
cost/sqft and btu/$ spent are very interesting to me and to any of my
clients. I am a builder, and admit have not installed GEO
yet............
Example... Heat system cost $20,000/2,000sqft annual cost regardless of
set points etc... in say Missoula... 5,000hddays, was $2.000 last year
with propane at $2.00/gal, $1500 for propane, $500 for electric use
totals $2000. Not including any other uses such as hot water, cooking
etc. Then we installed GEO for $20,000 since system was shot, and costs
dropped to $500 at $.05/KWH with hot water from superheater included...
Yes... hard to separate.... I know... OK... so the propane includes all
propane use... and the GEO now includes ac use all summer which was not
affordable before. And the clients can't stop smiling.
I get it... in another nutshell sort of way...
I think this all started mostly because where I live and North of
here... cold ground temps and $.14/KWH change the savings to much less
than where many may save substantially. $.07 cuts costs in half as to
here. HALF! That's a lot of greenbacks. And if the water temp is 10-15
warmer... again... more efficient... how much... that I do not know. I
know a bit more now.... seems for very low temps the install cost goes
up quite a bit so as to not have auxiliary heat strips start. And if
using 2 stage units... costs go up.
OK... GEO is interesting. You all know... I am learning... with and without the knock abouts.
peace
adkjacUpstateNY, I copied your last post here. Take this thread in whatever direction you wish. I'd like to end the previous thread that I started at this time. Thanks and good luck. geome |
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| Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon. |
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 09 Jun 2010 09:29 PM |
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Posted By geome on 09 Jun 2010 07:17 PM
Posted By adkjacUpstateNY on 09 Jun 2010 06:21 PM
Example... Heat system cost $20,000/2,000sqft annual cost regardless of set points etc... in say Missoula... 5,000hddays, was $2.000 last year with propane at $2.00/gal, $1500 for propane, $500 for electric use totals $2000. Not including any other uses such as hot water, cooking etc. Then we installed GEO for $20,000 since system was shot, and costs dropped to $500 at $.05/KWH with hot water from superheater included... Yes... hard to separate.... I know... OK... so the propane includes all propane use... and the GEO now includes ac use all summer which was not affordable before. And the clients can't stop smiling.
Closer, but without man. J load, 2000 SF can vary wildly. A ranch for instance may be 30% more load than a comparably insulated colonial, while an ICF quad level may have 1/4 the load. An old farmhouse may have twice the load of a modern home with no wall insulation and each masonry fireplace can add more than 10000 btu's......... If it helps most homes in my area (mid-MI) employ a 3-4 ton and install costs average between 15 and 20K without ducts but with ground loops. Operating costs for heating only are $650 to $1,200 impacted of course by load and equipment size but also by electric provider as 1 local charges 25% less than another for elec heating. Incidently cost of doing these jobs varies wildly as well based on many contingencies. If for example I find dry sand instead of damp gravel when the excavator gets down 6 feet, an additional ground loop may have to be added ($1,650). j |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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geome
Advanced Member
Posts:987
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| 09 Jun 2010 10:24 PM |
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Posted By docjenser on 09 Jun 2010 08:50 PM
Keep asking questions, as specific as you can, I will keep answering, as good as I can.
May 2008-Apr 2009 Heating bill with natural gas = $4785 (at $1.35/ccf incl. delivery), incl. hot water
May 2009-Apr 2010 increase in electric bill compared to the same period
the year before (Heating bill now Geo) =$ 2465 (at 14c/kwh, incl.),
incl. hot water
Buffalo NY
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| Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon. |
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adkjacUpstateNY
Basic Member
Posts:167
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| 10 Jun 2010 12:51 AM |
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Informative posts coming in... the info to me is very enlightening... I hope this thread fills up with dozens of others examples... costs... I am finally starting to at least some users numbers and actual experience. Yeah.
Thank you all.... I will move my last post here... |
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adkjacUpstateNY
Basic Member
Posts:167
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| 10 Jun 2010 12:54 AM |
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docjenser... nice post of info... thanks... my calcs say you get COP of 5... and need 300 millioin BTUs. Wow. .. Big number... large home? SQFt? |
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docjenser
Veteran Member
Posts:1400
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| 14 Jun 2010 09:35 PM |
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Posted By adkjacUpstateNY on 10 Jun 2010 12:54 AM
docjenser... nice post of info... thanks... my calcs say you get COP of 5... and need 300 millioin BTUs. Wow. .. Big number... large home? SQFt?
Home is 3,800, but an old Tudor style house built in the '20 with terrible insulation. There is only so much you can do....
I have an oversized loop (50%), keep in mind that the COP is rated at 32F EWT, and goes up with higher source temps. I never reached 32F during the winter (it is Buffalo!), I assume one reason is because of the higher EWT's coming from the ground loop, among other reasons.
Also domestic hot water was included and made before with an efficiency below 58%, and now with the efficiency of the geo system. I have 3 daughter and a wife taking hot showers forever. Nothing any sizing software can account for....!
Keep also in mind that I had an 80% boiler at best, only converting 80% of gas BTUs into heat.
You are in the ballpark with 300 million BTUs, I don't even want to look at it closely. If I do, they turned out about 359 million to be exact BTUs in 2008/2009. The house is an energy hog!
At the end of the day, these are my real life numbers over the first heating season comparing geo to natural gas. |
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| www.buffalogeothermalheating.com |
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adkjacUpstateNY
Basic Member
Posts:167
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| 16 Jun 2010 12:12 AM |
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Interesting info doc... you know my house is half the size of yours and heats with 40 million BTUs... domestic water heat is 100KWH a month... so another 2 million per winter or summer... so 44million is my place, less showers than your for sure. Heat is never at 72... AC hasn't been on for years now.... using fans.
I use on average 500 kwh of electric a month...
As I have posted here and there... working on new plan... |
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Dana1
Senior Member
Posts:6991
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| 16 Jun 2010 10:16 AM |
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Posted By docjenser on 14 Jun 2010 09:35 PM
Posted By adkjacUpstateNY on 10 Jun 2010 12:54 AM
docjenser... nice post of info... thanks... my calcs say you get COP of 5... and need 300 millioin BTUs. Wow. .. Big number... large home? SQFt?
Home is 3,800, but an old Tudor style house built in the '20 with terrible insulation. There is only so much you can do....
I have an oversized loop (50%), keep in mind that the COP is rated at 32F EWT, and goes up with higher source temps. I never reached 32F during the winter (it is Buffalo!), I assume one reason is because of the higher EWT's coming from the ground loop, among other reasons.
Also domestic hot water was included and made before with an efficiency below 58%, and now with the efficiency of the geo system. I have 3 daughter and a wife taking hot showers forever. Nothing any sizing software can account for....!
Keep also in mind that I had an 80% boiler at best, only converting 80% of gas BTUs into heat.
You are in the ballpark with 300 million BTUs, I don't even want to look at it closely. If I do, they turned out about 359 million to be exact BTUs in 2008/2009. The house is an energy hog!
At the end of the day, these are my real life numbers over the first heating season comparing geo to natural gas.
OUCH! Even with high-efficiency geo HW heating, it's probably still cost-effective to go with drainwater heat-recovery with four 10-minute+ showers every day! It's tough to insulate old tudors, but they can usually be reasonably air-sealed. If you're still paying ~$2.4K/annum for heat & hot water, a blower-door test & sealing up the worst of it will also likely be cost effective, and maybe even insulating the foundation & basement/crawspace floor, if they're not built-out & finished. (Just foam-sealing & insulating the band joist & foundations sill can often cut the air infiltration in half, and the heating bill by over 10% in many 1920s vintage houses.) |
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docjenser
Veteran Member
Posts:1400
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| 18 Jun 2010 11:22 PM |
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If you could see me, there is pure jealousy in my eyes.....
No crawlspace, just full basement. Doing everything in a stepwise fashion. But there is only so much you can do. Living room is single glass, lead stained windows...go figure!
http://welserver.com/WEL0267/ |
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| www.buffalogeothermalheating.com |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 20 Jun 2010 01:37 AM |
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Drainwater heat recovery is an interesting idea. It is probably worth noting that folks taking long 105 degree showers really aren't 'consuming' hot water per se; they are actually just enjoying it as it splashes by.
In other words, shower water probably goes down the drain at 95+ degrees, making it an excellent candidate for heat recovery while it goes by. Even better is the fact that times of high warm drainwater flow obviously coincide with times of high hot water use.
That makes me wonder if a heat pump water heater could profitably be made to use as its source all the departing hot water from a house. Every gallon of hot water used goes down a drain - that flow would seem to be an excellent candidate for recovery to heat the next hot water needed.
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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Palace Geothermal
Veteran Member
Posts:1609
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| 20 Jun 2010 11:31 AM |
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Posted By engineer on 20 Jun 2010 01:37 AM
That makes me wonder if a heat pump water heater could profitably be made to use as its source all the departing hot water from a house. Every gallon of hot water used goes down a drain - that flow would seem to be an excellent candidate for recovery to heat the next hot water needed.
do I see a new product design in your future?  |
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Dewayne Dean
<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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Looby
Basic Member
Posts:401
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| 20 Jun 2010 01:30 PM |
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Brewers do it all the time -- recover heat from the batch
leaving the brew kettle to preheat water for the next batch.
Should be easy to plumb a small counterflow exchanger
into the water heater feed line.
Prolly not so easy to run an isolated drain line from the
shower to the utility room. ...building code obstacles?
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| One measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions. |
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Dana1
Senior Member
Posts:6991
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| 21 Jun 2010 10:17 AM |
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Posted By engineer on 20 Jun 2010 01:37 AM
Drainwater heat recovery is an interesting idea. It is probably worth noting that folks taking long 105 degree showers really aren't 'consuming' hot water per se; they are actually just enjoying it as it splashes by.
In other words, shower water probably goes down the drain at 95+ degrees, making it an excellent candidate for heat recovery while it goes by. Even better is the fact that times of high warm drainwater flow obviously coincide with times of high hot water use.
That makes me wonder if a heat pump water heater could profitably be made to use as its source all the departing hot water from a house. Every gallon of hot water used goes down a drain - that flow would seem to be an excellent candidate for recovery to heat the next hot water needed.
Getting well over 50% of the heat returned is already done with simple heat counterflow heat exchangers in a shower situation, but not batch draws like tub baths & laundry, etc. There's a whole industry out there (google GFX, Retherm, PowerPipe, EcoDrain) You could do better with heat pumps drawing from insulated greywater tanks but the complexity & maintenance of that sort of system wouldn't likely ever become NPV+ in a financial analysis for a single-family residential sized application. |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 21 Jun 2010 07:19 PM |
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I think it would only be economical / effective in cases of new construction where greywater is separated from blackwater, which is a niche. I'm thinking of something along the lines of a greywater sump in which HPWH evaporator line is run. There would need to be freeze protection, but it shouldn't need to kick in too often. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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joe.ami
Veteran Member
Posts:4377
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| 22 Jun 2010 12:34 AM |
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Curt,
Picture in my minds eye wouldn't be a sump but perhaps a vented coaxial on the main sewerage pipe. Bends or circles we are used to in the geo biz are ot necessary to capture heat, straight heat exchanges have been used for years. Vent avoids cross contamination if drain pipe fails.
That allows you to dodge freezing (no stationary wate) and sanitary risks as well as capture heat from all drain water.
As an added bonus, how 'bout a rifled drain pipe to put that turd....ummm I mean, heat energy, to work.
J |
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Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
Dig Your Own Comfort! |
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adkjacUpstateNY
Basic Member
Posts:167
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| 22 Jun 2010 10:38 AM |
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I like this idea of using a water to water heat pump to heat domestic. Definitely makes more sense than removing heat from interior air to heat domestic in a cold climate like where I live.
If we get it made by Daikin... good pricing... and maybe they could hook it up to the refrigerator too so as to move all the temps around just where needed seasonally.
Make enough of em and the price would be right.
Keep working this idea out.... I want one. |
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Looby
Basic Member
Posts:401
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| 22 Jun 2010 12:37 PM |
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Posted By adkjacUpstateNY on 22 Jun 2010 10:38 AM
... and maybe they could hook it up to the refrigerator too ...
Ah, yes! The ever-popular Eierlegendewollmilchsau:
- - - - - - - - - egg-laying wooly milk-pig - - - - - - - - - |
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| One measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions. |
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adkjacUpstateNY
Basic Member
Posts:167
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| 22 Jun 2010 05:00 PM |
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and to add to the laugh... we already have creatures of man's creation... pigs... that grow human parts... and that's just the start.
LOL
nice pic... can we harness any GEO heat from it? |
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engineer
Veteran Member
Posts:2749
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| 23 Jun 2010 12:54 AM |
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Sump would allow recapture of thermal mass of bigger batch hot water uses such as bathing and laundry. I suppose there isn't any real reason the black water couldn't be routed through the sump as well. Rifled lines would improve heat transfer but might have to overcome perceived risk that rifling might increase snags / clogs of solid waste...just thinking out loud here...Trying to flesh out the idea that heating domestic water should not in theory require a net btu input since it should be possible to recover from departing water, grey or black, heat necessary to warm incoming replacement water. |
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Curt Kinder <br><br>
The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is - Winston Churchill <br><br><a href="http://www.greenersolutionsair.com">www.greenersolutionsair.com</a>
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