Just had geo installed in a new construction and the installer mentioned that I'll have a good winter with it because I'll have the summer to charge the ground with warmth. Is that true or is that a bit of a myth? Seemed like it could go either way. He also said my system would be more efficient the second year because they would return a few times to fine tune the system. That makes a bit more sense. Any thoughts?

Posted By dkubarek on 16 Jun 2010 12:20 AM
... I'll have the summer to charge the ground with warmth.
Is that true or is that a bit of a myth?

Might be true for some geologies, but not my vertical loop in
water-saturated highly fractured rock. It has a "memory" of no
more than a day or two, due to good of subsurface water flow.

IMO, that's much better than soil that can "hold a charge."
Long thermal memory means low thermal conductivity.

I concur

I secondly concur

My well guy said I have lots of shale and groundwater. They used grout, too. My residential water well is a gusher at 40 gpm so I guess it's safe to say I don't have to worry about charging the system, either.

So what kinds of geologies WOULD have a memory? No groundwater or horizontals in particular?

Vertical in dry rock or sand, perhaps, depending on conductivity, but I wouldn't bet a design on that

My slinky in dry clay will be  70 at  the end of  summer and still be 60 come winter

Nothing like a bit of data....

The shoulder seasons (very light loads) provide weeks for loops to revert to local ground temps going into each summer or winter.

Yes, you can "charge up" some (probably most) closed loops during one season and have some of this carry over into the next season for an efficiency improvement. An imbalance in heat addition/extraction for deep closed loops without ground water creates small, persistent, detrimental temperature changes that can take years to create or get rid of. That being said, most of the change in ground temperature near the loop is reversed within hours of non-use.

Posted By jonr on 25 Jun 2010 08:33 PM

Imbalance ... creates small, persistent, detrimental temperature changes
that take years to create or get rid of.

That being said, most of the change in ground temperature near the
loop is reversed within hours of non-use.

So, heat is composed mostly of fast thermons that can migrate in/out
within hours, plus a few slow thermons that hang around for years?

...that's some very interesting physics, professor,

Looby

Feild report data.

More than once we have had this come up. The push by contractor to get system on and running to support continued construction. Most builders do not allow smoking in new construction, and materials are in and out all day, workers open windows and smoke out the window.
This is a greatly exagerated load which has a predictable effect on exchanger. Home owner moves in and finds his ewt out of whack. It is allways the drillers fault so our phone rings.
One customer who held a masters ticket in several states demanded that a garden hose be used to circulate 55 degree water through the loop field for 2 days to" correct " the exchanger. I did not, he did. Results at the end of 2 days of circulation 2 degree drop in temp only. Ewt a year later has "normalised at about 65-68 at summer end, and 45-46 at winters end. I do not have any data for the correction during the shoulder months.
To me this goes back to the secondary function of the grout in highly conductive soils the grout insulates and actually hinders the direct exchange of heat. The grout does however provide enviromental protection and even out the exchange if several different geologies were encountered in the bore.
Summation
This is for you Curt
Without direct data to compare, what you think happens may not be what actually happens.

I have questions about Hare thermons and tortoise thermons...

Will a sufficiently powerful flush cart properly plumbed to the loop field evacuate detrimental thermons while leaving benign ones in place?

Does Loop Conditioner repel detrimental thermons?

What is the proper procedure to dispose of detrimental thermons after they have accumulated in the flush cart tank? Must they be bagged, tagged and treated as Hazmat?

Are thermons entirely miscible with water or will they separate out in layers?

Are Thermon vapors hazardous? Where can I get the MSDS

Curt, we send our annoying thermons to the "Daisey Hill Puppy and Thermon Farm." There they can frolic with Snoopy and not interfere with our loop performance.
J

Posted By engineer on 27 Jun 2010 08:08 PM

What is the proper procedure to dispose of detrimental thermons ... ?

Are thermons entirely miscible with water ... ?

Are Thermon vapors hazardous ... ?

"On The Critical Conditions for an Assembly of Interacting Thermons"

...the web knows all,

Looby

I made it about one half page into that before my eyes crossed and glazed over

Sorry 'bout that. Your satire detector may need recalibration.

data that glazed an engineers eyes over?yuck. i probably wouldn't have made it through the first sentance.
j

I admit it...

Looby got me, fair and square!

absent minutiae,you have only clarity