While I have no objection to folks asking about insurance.......
It has been suggested that I am uncommomnly resistant to the idea of making homeowners certificate holders. "Named insured" was one of the terms thrown around but since the thrust was notification to the client in the event coverage changed, in MI that would require that the individual were a "certificate holder" (though objections to "named insured" would be nearly identical).

I object and discard the notion as ridiculous for the following reasons-

1) it does not improve the homeowners coverage.
2) most contractors pay premiums once or twice/yr, it would be impossible for me to default on my insurance in the time it takes to do a residential job. Even if I paid monthly, insurance here has a 30 day grace period, so if I'm in good standing when we sign, I will have coverage for at least 30 days.
3) the volume of homes we service each year would make administration fees outrageous (you'd hardly be able to find your name in there).

The few entities I have listed as a certificate holder include an internet referral company (as we have a multi year relationship and they promise a certain amount of screening to clients), a commercial/industrial builder with a 1/4 million + dollar project and a city that made the request illeagley (hence a previous "pet peave" comment). I complied with the citiy's request simply because it was most expeditious for my customer. 

Never has a homeowner asked to be a certificate holder nor have I offered. Nor would I.
I find uncommon and unreasonable requests a harbinger of things to come with customers and often bid higher to cover presumed complications on the job or decline to bid altogether.

So of you contractors, how many have made customers certificate holders on short term resi jobs? How many would? Perhaps it is different in other states, but in MI it isn't done. Am I unique in this posistion?

Joe

If this is to be the definitive thread on this issue, why not open it to everyone (including possible insurance experts reading this forum)? Limiting this thread to contractors will certainly reflect one sided views for the most part. There are two sides to this issue. If you want the homeowner side to be handled in a separate thread, that's perfectly fine, but that thread should be limited to non-contractors.

I wouldn't think that anyone would dispute that the best course for the contractor is to not provide this documentation, and the best course for the homeowner is to check with their insurance agent and or attorney for professional advise on what is in their best interest.

Posted By geome on 21 Jun 2010 09:43 AM
If this is to be the definitive thread on this issue, why not open it to everyone (including possible insurance experts reading this forum)? Limiting this thread to contractors will certainly reflect one sided views for the most part. There are two sides to this issue. If you want the homeowner side to be handled in a separate thread, that's perfectly fine, but that thread should be limited to non-contractors.

Geome,
Obviously anyone can reply on an open forum, I however hoped to discern whether I was unique in my posistion on this. Other geo contractors are the only ones that can tell me if this is something routine elsewhere. I know that I and my peers in MI do not make every customer a certificate holder. If the practice is common elsewhere then perhaps my posistion is unique to my state.
 


I wouldn't think that anyone would dispute that the best course for the contractor is to not provide this documentation,
We have both stated our positions and I am not interested in another pissing match. I resent your suggestion above, however, that my objections are strictly self serving. I have repeatedly articulated why I think the suggestion is a poor one. You seem to feel I don't care to spend the time or money.
I spend a good deal of time on things I find important- from design work to helping homeowners on blog sites.
This suggestion of yours in my opinion would not be a valuable use of my time or my customer's money (who do you think costs are passed on too?).
and the best course for the homeowner is to check with their insurance agent and or attorney for professional advise on what is in their best interest.
 
You mean they shouldn't consult me, or you- for insurance advice? NO S#!+

So,
If homeowners would like to help with this straw poll, I'll ask; who is a certificate holder on their contractor's policy?
You first Geome, you have repeatedly ignored this question, you must be since it is so important to you.....yes?

Let's keep this thread civil toned.

Not ignoring the question, just trying to keep my long responses a little shorter. The most recent certificate I received was for landscape, drain tile, and concrete patio and porch work. Prior to that, I received one for tree removal work. Both companies were small enough to be exempt from workers' comp laws.

I don't believe your view is any more self serving than a homeowner requesting this information. Just two different perspectives - that's all. If I was a contractor, I probably wouldn't Want to do this either, however, from experience I know it is a standard insurance practice (when it is requested), so I would do it if I wanted the work and if the homeowner asked. I wouldn't volunteer it. I never said you should do this for every customer as a blanket policy.

Yes anyone can reply but non-contractors familiar with our previous posts , knowing that they weren't invited in this thread, may be afraid that they wouldn't be welcome - so I thought it best to ask you.

Asking peers will give insight as to what they do (if that is what you are interested in, that's perfectly reasonable). This doesn't necessarily mean that what they do is best for homeowner protection. I don't want a pissing match either. Just clarifying this thread for future readers.

Some unanswered questions for you:

How much time does this actually take you per request? I was able to do this within 5 minutes per request. I believe at the beginning of the next policy year, I received a copy of all the certificates outstanding. I faxed the ones back to the insurance company that should be canceled due to the job being complete. It was simple.

What is this actually cost? Is it free, is it $20? I was able to do this for free, but this may vary based on state and insurance carrier. Hypothetically, do you think a customer would notice it if you added a few dollars (literally) of overhead to every quote to cover your time and expense for the customers that ask for this? Obviously, businesses need to cover costs.

Most importantly, what other kind of PROOF have you been able to come up with? I tried contacting an insurance company about an alternative once. At the time they told me that proof is only done through a certificate.

> 1) it does not improve the homeowners coverage.

Where does this claim come from?

jonr, as a result of your question, I did a search to see if a certificate somehow entitles a person to some sort of preference. While I didn't look long enough to find the answer to that, or to your question, I did find something interesting:

Per thehartford.com, "A Certificate of Insurance is used to provide proof of insurance coverage to a certificate holder. If you require multiple certificates, or a certificate with special wording, please contact the Service Center for assistance." The site enables the insured to enter information online to add a certificate. I'll try to post the url, but sometimes it doesn't come through -
http://www.thehartford.com/servlet/Satellite?c=Page&cid=1150853288216&pagename=HIG%2FPage%2FHIG_COI_Form_Page
I guess we're all learning more about this, myself included.  Interesting, it allows a "one time only" or "issue annually" options.

I provide certificates to businesses that request it, that we are swapping monies with.  We have to pay for every certificate issued, here they are notary worthy.  We would not even know how to begin to issue one to a residential customer.  Part of the authenticity of the certificate is that when you request one sent, it usually goes to the other comanies insurance carrier or bonding agency.  We the workers/ we the people never get to touch or see them.

Posted By waterpirate on 21 Jun 2010 05:15 PM
We the workers/ we the people never get to touch or see them.

For some reason (I suppose a legal one), the insurance carrier of the insured does not pass the certificate through the insured to the certificate holder.  It goes directly to the certificate holder.  I don't know if this is the same everywhere.  I have seen copies though.

I have never had a home owner ask for a certificate. If asked, I would have them call my insurance agent for confirmation that I do have insurance.

I do see both sides of this discussion, being a contractor, I agree with Joe.

Posted By jonr on 21 Jun 2010 03:14 PM
> 1) it does not improve the homeowners coverage.

Where does this claim come from?

Jonr,
Claim comes from my agent. Personnaly I'm indifferent, I know I'm covered.

Geome,
Neat dodge. You still haven't verified you were named by your geo installer.

Eric,
Thanks for your response, Curt weighed in elsewhere, I'm sure the heated nature of the debate has some avoiding it.
Kinda sorry I'm here myself, but wish more contractors would weigh in. If I'm in the minority, it simply means I need to rethink my position (that's honestly why I asked), If I'm not........other shoppers might be interested to know that this is not just another Joe tirade.

I know I'm considerably more hot-headed than the other pros here, I don't suffer foolishness well.

Since the implication has been that I am un-reasonable, I think burden of proof lies on those implying such.

This thread reached to my peers in an effort to see if my position was professionally unique. To that end, homeowner input is less interesting, particularly from those who have demonstrated use of forums for testing theories.

I did forget to reiterate the number one reason I carry insurance.....to protect me from unreasonable sue happy homeowners. I've (again knock wood) never had a problem I couldn't fix for a couple bucks (stuff happens on jobs).
Due in part to avoiding customers with odd requests, or at least in tacking on the "kooky customer tax" which is an additional margin added to cover arbitrary concerns of customers whos demands are a bit outside the lines.
I further maintain biggest risk to a geo purchaser is poor design; not covered by liability or comp insurance.
J 

joe, see my post above,   I think we were typing at the same time

Thanks Dewayne,
Hoped you'd weigh in, but figured (since you are way more the gentleman than I) you might keep this at arms length.
BTW just recieved the first batch of "we dig comfort shirts". If you are ever in touch with Clark, tell him I need a mailing address. Last I recieved from him, suggested trying times......nothin' like a nice AMI shirt to cure what ails.
j

Joe, not going down the slippery slope with a you again, however I will say your dodging comment is a bit like the pot calling the kettle black.

My points are:
1) Proof of insurance is good for the homeowner and to my knowledge a certificate is the only way of obtaining Proof. Please (anyone) inform us if there is another way.
2) Certificates are common in the insurance industry and there are some easy to use online services available, (why design and implement a web request if this is not common). It is still easy, and fast, with one phone call.
3) Certificates would be even more common if homeowners knew to request them (since this is not typically volunteered by the contractor). I will continue to suggest homeowners get professional insurance advice (including asking about certificates) at appropriate times.
4) Certificates may be a great way for installers to further differentiate themselves from the pack. There is no reason homeowners should be the only ones that benefit from certificate use. An installers' willingness to provide a certificate may possibly increase the chances of getting a job compared to an installer that is not willing to provide a certificate.
5) The minimal cost that has been volunteered to date, including cost from the insurance company and time invested, could be recovered from the customer should the installer want to.
6) In and of itself, a certificate request should not send up flags, however I don't dispute that some customers should be avoided for other issues, or a combination of multiple issues.
7) I would be leery of an installer not willing to provide PROOF of insurance. It is good to read that installers here are willing to contact their insurance agents should they receive a request for proof of insurance

Dewayne, thanks for your input too. If this comes up with a customer, or you happen to speak to your agent, please ask if he is permitted to give a verbal assurance as proof of insurance in your state, or if he should process a certificate.

P.S.  Joe, while you may have insurance, don't you realize that the installers that really don't have insurance may use many of the same arguments that you present to avoid presenting PROOF?  There are reasons the certificate exists and reasons that it passes directly from the insurance company directly to the certificate holder.

Sooo geome, you are a certificate holder of your geo installer?

Answer the question.

or have you?

Geome,
Slippery slope? All yours.
No contractor or homeowner here has supported your posisition.
I suggested your insistance on being a certificate holder is far enough off the beaten track that it could fairly be deemed, unreasonable. So far we've seen no evidence to the contrary.
It has also been submitted repeatedly that being a certificate holder is not required for the PROOF you insist on (though again I'm indifferent as I see my insurance as a safegaurd against customers).
If you have evidence to the contrary please submit it.
If you wish to continue the "slippery slope"....start the thread you suggested for all your percieved homeowner support.
10 paragraphs of your "points" are re-runs.
I genuinly started a thread for dispassionate 3rd party opinions and you insist on relocating a bickering match.
Chill; and let's invite feedback, not scare it off.
j

Guys....I have been a contractor since 1975. In those few short years, I have never been asked by a homeowner for a certificate of insurance. Just to put some perspective on this lively debate.

Joe....here is Clark's address:

919 E 200 N
Roosevelt, UT 84066

From a residential perspective this whole thing goes back to my favorite root issue. In the end the customer has to decide to "trust someone". Wheather it is the manual j, the grout, the design, the duct work. If a residential customer asked me for a insurance " validation" I would be accomadating as possible. If they requested to be a certificate holder i would prolly move on to the next customer who "trusted me" rather than move forward with someone who does not.

"Never been asked" along with comments not said here (but applicable) "we've always done it that way" doesn't mean that this lack of practice is correct for homeowner protection. This is simply a case of homeowners (and some installers) not knowing that this is available and accepted in the insurance industry whether you like it or not. Lack of homeowner response here - duh I wonder why... ;-)

Unfortunately for the homeowner, I'm sure that your pet peave and corresponding threats of walking away will scare off some homeowners from asking about proof of insurance. "Trust me" and your other arguments exactly is what unscrupulous installers would say that can't prove they have insurance. What do you think they say???  -  "I don't have insurance but everything will be fine."

I hope you're happy with not providing the homeowner with the best insurance advise here. Will you be willing to foot their bill if they get scr'wed by an unscrupulous installer? I'm sure you won't answer this along with my other questions regarding cost, time, proof, what installers with no insurance say, etc. Sorry your pet peave has colored you judgment here. You typically give good advise, but WOW, are you off base with this one from a homeowner protection standpoint. I think that will be remembered, to your benefit or detriment (you can guess which.)

Homeowners, do yourself a favor and ask your insurance agent to see what is best for you. Earlier, even Joe suggesting getting professional advise, however that advise has somewhat been diminished by further posts.  You should contact your carrier anyway to ensure that your new system is fully covered and to see if there is a discount available to you for an all electric house (if indeed you are all electric.)

It's obvious that we won't answer each others questions.  Joe, are you willing to end this by reiterating that homeowners should get professional insurance advise, to leave a lasting impression with the homeowner, as your last comment on the issue?