Bore hole spacers
Last Post 19 Nov 2010 08:30 AM by geodean. 75 Replies.
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joe.amiUser is Offline
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21 Aug 2010 12:08 AM
Posted By Looby on 20 Aug 2010 11:07 AM

 

But, but, but, you can get another 24% by installing geoclips on
both loops, ...and up to 30% or more with tc-enhanced grout.
Now, just use copper in place of HDPE for an additional 40% --
and you prolly won't need any bore at all.

"I put instant coffee in the microwave and almost went back in time."
- Steven Wright

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Its a miracle! (kinda like magic spray and tape used to cure mortal wounds in world cup soccer).
j
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
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26 Aug 2010 06:04 AM
Some interesting comments about the benefits of stuffing as much pipe down the hole as possible... 

What difference can an inch make...  [Quite a lot in my personal experience!]

Because we sell Geoclips, and I want to sleep well each night, we undertook a desk study of the effect of changing the Average Drill Penetration Rate, conductivity of the grout, borehole diameter, Loop pipe diameter and pipe position within the borehole [with or without GeoClips], for a specific DEsign Load.  We got some interesting results - published in the November 2009 issue of Geodrilling International magazine.

For arguments sake, we assumed a total UK cost of £125 per working hour and an Average Drill Penetration rate of 10m (33') per hour.  I appreciate these figures will vary from region to region, but you've got to start somewhere... I would be interested in feedback regarding your ADPRs.   We also explored the effect of changing the Drill penetration rate by +/- 80% (2m - 18m (6'6" - 59' 3") per hour), to see how this affected things.  Total costs included all costs of Rig ownership;  including manpower, utilisation, finance, insurance, depreciation, consumables (Drill bits, etc.) etc., as well as the cost of materials, such as the Loop pipe and grout, for the drilled length(s).

The short version is that, if you:
  • Use Single or Double  Loop GHEx in the borehole,
  • Take all of the true installation costs in to account,
  • Can design the borehole taking account of the known Thermal conductivity of the formation to reduce the total borehole length to  a safe minimum,
After taking the cost of buying the GeoClips in to account, GeoClips produce the lowest cost borehole every time; unless you are cutting through warm butter at more than 19m/hour (62' per hour), then you reach parity.  In this situation the only benefits of using GeoClips are:
  • An improvement in thermal performance, helping to reduce the future operating costs for the client - and the Environment,
  • Knowledge that you have a high quality borehole producing the same (maximum) performance as any other Geoclipped borehole, in the same formation;  unrestrained Loops are all unique - who knows where the pipes are, in relation to each other down the hole?  The only way of finding out is to conduct a TRT on every borehole.

On the subject of Single / Double Loops being best:

Double loop installations definitely require the shortest boreholes, reducing Design Borehole Length required by 8%, if both single and double Loops are unrestrained, and 14 - 15% if the Double Loop uses GeoClips, whilst the single Loop is unrestrained.

However, Double Loops are not the lowest cost option; we found that a Geoclipped Double Loop is about 33p ($ 0.50) per foot more expensive than the equivalent unrestrained single Loop [UK prices] - due to the cost of the GeoClips and extra plastic pipe required - the unrestrained Double Loop is about 14p ($ 0.20) per foot more expensive, due to the extra cost of the plastic pipes alone.

The lowest cost installation, for the Design Load considered, was achieved using a Single GeoClipped Loop in (surprisingly) a slightly narrower borehole - 130mm ( 5" ), as opposed to 150mm (6") - this reduced the Design Borehole Length required by approximately 4% and the cost by 53p ($ 0.80) per foot.

This data is shown on our (under development) web site:  www.geo-clip.co.uk/home/grouting/thermally-conductive-grouts

The Study was made using Gaia GLD software, and the techniques and formuli contained in the IGSHPA Certified GeoExchange Designers book - "Grouting for Vertical Geothermal Heat Pump Systems  - Engineering Design and Field Proceedures" Chapter 2.

Annex C also gives data relating to the Field verification test made by Smith (1997) and Remund(1997) which compared Configuration B (Unrestrained) Loops with Configuration C (GeoClipped).  I believe this is where the GBT Inc. graphs come from.

Happy to send a copy of our full Desk study findings to anyone interested.

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26 Aug 2010 06:35 PM
Posted By geome on 19 Aug 2010 07:00 PM
I just sent an email to geoclip (GBT, Inc.) (Geothermal Bore Technologies, not Green Building Talk) asking for an internet link to the study. I'll let you know if I hear back.
One week later - nothing, nada, zip, zilch, zero...
Homeowner with WF Envision NDV038 (packaged) & NDZ026 (split), one 3000' 4 pipe closed horizontal ground loop, Prestige thermostats, desuperheaters, 85 gal. Marathon.
joe.amiUser is Offline
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26 Aug 2010 10:55 PM
might be foggy after a long day but did GBT's last post suggest ~10% for 2 loop or spacers?
not sure that's new news.
j
Joe Hardin
www.amicontracting.com
We Dig Comfort!
www.doityourselfgeothermal.com
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27 Aug 2010 07:47 AM
Thank you for sharing that data, it certainly bears out the cost savings in your kneck of the woods.

About the adpr's

This is where it is really gonna hurt.  Any thing we do to a geo loop to make it better has to stand up to the scrutiny of a cost benefit annalysis.  When we speak of adpr's there are so many factors to consider they are allways really skewed.  Some of the factors:
type of machine used
operator
rate of pay for operator

Most of the machines available for the installation of geo lops are multi purpose machines.  That means that the machine is o.k. at doing a lot of things and not really good at any of them.  Most of the operators are used to drilling other projects such as water wells which is considered a "noble" occupation.  Geo loops are not "noble".  They are production holes and need to be treated as such.  A full understanding of drilling is required and must be applied, just because someone has been drilling for 30 years does not mean they understand anything.  The rate of pay for the driller is also a key factor in production holes.  They need to be payed by the foot.  Hourly wages are for people who do not have enough confidance in their skills to get it done.  Kind of like the differance between commision sales and the guy who is still on salary.

I know just enough about hard rock drilling to get myself into serious trouble, but if you want to talk about mud rotary I have a phd.  We typically drill coarse sand and gravels with layers of shale,swelling clays, cobbles, cemented calcium, sandstone, and ore stone, as well as bog iron.  All of these things occur in the same 2-300 foot bore.  It makes for exciting drilling.  I am highly motivated as a driller and take great pleasure at being the fastest and most cost effective in my neihborhood.  Yesterday was a average day, 5x200 for a residential retro-fit.  Adpr's for the day 10 feet per minute.  Average time to complete 1x200 including grout from the bottom up 43 minutes. 

Slowing down that process for clip install or reducing footage does not add up in my kneck of the woods, but it will in other places.  My philosophy for drilling is simple, if you are not willing to overdrill your circulation or lose a tool string down hole, you are drilling to slow.

Eric
Eric Sackett<br>www.weberwelldrilling.com<br >Visit our Geothermal Resource Center!
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28 Aug 2010 12:45 AM
Gentlemen - if memory serves me right - is not the first rule of thermal dynamic - heat flows to cold? therefor at least some of your hard gained heat is going to transfer to the in coming fluid. However at some point the heat loss should stabilize. As has been pointed out, this still might not justify clips etc. The only thing that maters at the end of the day is the cost per btu! If in your situation that means ten pipe in one hole so be it. (not that it would ;-)) Now what would happen if we could find a way to directionally drill two wells some distance apart to meet at X and than fish the loop down one and up the other. No heat loss to incoming! Not sure it can be done with today's technology and not sure it would reduce the cost per btu but we can dream can't we?
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28 Aug 2010 05:17 AM
Its been done both commercialy and for residential.
Eric Sackett<br>www.weberwelldrilling.com<br >Visit our Geothermal Resource Center!
FBBPUser is Offline
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30 Aug 2010 11:22 PM
Its been done both commercialy and for residential.

Eric - do you know if there is any significant boast in performance? How do they bring the pipe around the bottom?
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31 Aug 2010 06:16 AM
The directional drilling was done from point a to a recieving pit at point x.  The benefit was no significant surface disturbance.  No data was ever released on performance one way or the other, just that it met design.  What was released was that the drilling was twice as expensive due to twice the amount of bore.
Eric
Eric Sackett<br>www.weberwelldrilling.com<br >Visit our Geothermal Resource Center!
GeoAirUser is Offline
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22 Sep 2010 04:18 PM
Hey guys,

Thought I would drop you guys a note to show you a new geothermal pipe spacer we just put on the market.
Some of you may have already heard of them, most of you not as we just hit the maket a few months ago.
We took the time needed to get these right and have had them tried and tested on many projects. You will find them here: www.EZ-Snaps.com  
The user guide is there and should answer any and all questions you might have.
If by chance you have any unsanswered queries, shoot me an email and I will make sure to get back to you.
In the meantime check the site out, you won't regret it!

For those that will be in the neighborhood for the NWGA annual meeting in Las Vegas this year, make sure to pass by!
I will be at booth # 1350.

Jack

Jacques Rotondo
General Manager 
Geo-Air Industries inc.
Quebec, Canada
www.GeoAirIndustries.com
jonrUser is Offline
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18 Nov 2010 07:47 PM
Interesting - actual test showing 30% reduction in thermal resistance by using spacers:

http://www.igshpa.okstate.edu/membership/members_only/proceedings/2010/10282010%20-%200330%20-%20Richard%20A.%20Beier%20-%20horizontal_boreholes.pdf
pachaiUser is Offline
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18 Nov 2010 08:42 PM
FBBP,
>>>Now what would happen if we could find a way to directionally drill
>>>two wells some distance apart to meet at X and than fish the loop down one and up the other

I have been thinking about this...and I may do one of these even if I
end up having a commercial driller do the first 2 wells.

My thoughts are 2 ways:
1. drill two boreholes 6" diam, 18' down, just 12-14" apart...that's about 18" on center.
(Note, I only had time to go 18" down, so I cannot speak from experience.
Maybe Sunday I'll do the second hole :-)
My drill is based on a 6" diam. drain pipe, so that's my diameter.
I am using a 3/4" black pipe for a drill shaft.
I would put a 90 degree elbow and a 4-5"  pipe nipple.
I already have the female hose coupler at the top.
Need to add a valve...
Put the 3/4" pipe coupled to be 20' long, elbow at the bottom
of the bore, and turn it on.  
Use shop vac to collect water and mud.
Repeat from the other hole.   6 + 6 = 12.
Watch for the water in the original hole.
A 20' 2x4 may be needed to oppose equal and opposite....

Again, not speaking from experience, but Aluminum adaptor plates
for electric cars have been cut with a water laser.

2. Other approach.
Dig 2 bore holes...start about 5' apart, do some math, and
angle them toward each other a tiny bit.
This is hard, only for Math Majors.
If you do it right, you will make a Vee and not need the elbow above.
Imporant to soften the inside of the V so it doesn't hurt the pipe.
Left as as exercise for the creative people who try this.

Next post for benefits...!



pachaiUser is Offline
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18 Nov 2010 08:52 PM
As a follow-up to the idea of using two bore holes near each other.
(At this time, I am not evaluating whether proximity reduces efficiency.)

Now, being an IT guy and a DIY home renovator, and
with 15 years of experience "fishing" wires with the wrong tools
(and later with the right tools), the next part is easy.
Fish a pull string from one hole to the other
and pull it up.
Attach an end to a pipe and pull ( gently).  
(Lubricate - with water?)

The Advantage to this is, I can have a vertical bore
with no weld.    I hate to harp on this, but I TRIED to learn
to weld to make battery racks, until my friend described
the drawbacks of welding.     Drilling and bolting makes
fewer stress points.   And requires fewer skills.


Another thought...
We originally thought to have a U tube in the hole.
Now we have an "l" in the tube.  
Maybe we could have an || ?

Two parallel loops in passing through
the same bore hole.
The question is, should water flow the same direction in both,
or perhaps they should be in opposite directions - one will
be transferring the most heat in the top of the hole
and the other in the bottom?   (or, in my design,
one is doing more in hole A and the other in hole B)

My reasoning with two loops passing through each
pair of boreholes is to not forfeit the linear footage.

Hope this help spark more thought on this...
Seth



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18 Nov 2010 08:58 PM
BTW, I mentioned a hose and shop vac....
I saw a Youtube on drilling with two hoses
and 2"x20' pvc and shop vac.

One small piece of Wisdom gained from experience...

When using a shop vac,
it's good to use a Collection bin of some sort, so the
Vacuum can pull, but it can't pull the mess into the motor.
I may use the old shopvac for this.

That's the advice I got how to protect my new shopvac (thanks Craigslist!).

Also, unplug tool before emptying tub,
lest the top flip over and turn on and suck mud into the motor.

(enjoy :-)

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19 Nov 2010 06:23 AM
I desprately want to see your efforts on you tube. Please post them as they become available with a link. I tend to get deppressed around the holidays and could use some priceless entertainment.
Thanx
Eric
Eric Sackett<br>www.weberwelldrilling.com<br >Visit our Geothermal Resource Center!
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19 Nov 2010 08:30 AM
Posted By waterpirate on 19 Nov 2010 06:23 AM
I desprately want to see your efforts on you tube. Please post them as they become available with a link. I tend to get deppressed around the holidays and could use some priceless entertainment.
Thanx
Eric

I am sure the video will go viral when it hits youtube.
Dewayne Dean

<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system
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